Artisan Archive
Thread: So IF SWG is a skill based game, why is it class based?
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cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:14 am
#1
When I first started reading about all the professions before launch, and seeing it was going to be a skill based system that would allow each and every character to customize their character, I was very excited with this idea.. Much different then class based systems like EQ.. I think you know what I mean.. Seen one 50th level cleric, you've seen them all.. (Generaly speaking)
However, after months of playing it appears to me that even tho it's promoted to be skill based, it's still pretty much a class based system.. Granted you can hold multiple professsions at once like being a Master Architect, Master Artisan, and Master Weaponsmith, but that is about as diverse as you get.. Skill dabbling is highly discouraged.. Why promote a skill based game in crafting when experimentation basicaly forces one to either master that elite profession, or don't do it at all..Why can't a Master Artisan also choose to be a novice weaponsmith, novice armorsmith, novice architect, novice chef, novice tailor, novice merchant do so if they choose to be a jack of all trades? Experimentation in crafting is 95% of any product crafted, and without it you are pretty much dead in the water, so why is skill dabbling of points discouraged in crafting.. I only say this because we know in combat profession skill dabbling is HIGHLY promoted, and used..
I can understand that a master should have a slight advantage in product quality, but not in the extreme it is.. Let me use an example from EQ, another SOE game I play.. A 50th lvl cleric that cast a 10th level spell is going to give the exact same result as a 30th level cleric casting the same 10th lvl spell.. Increasing skill in a crafing profession opens up bigger and better schematics.. Which is OK with me.. It's how it should be, however I disagree in giving that same person a distict advantage over lower level schematics as well..
May I offer a suggestion, and please keep an open mind.. Move all experimentation points in level 1-4 boxes to novice.. What this will do is allow novice to be somewhat competive with low end schematics.. If you get to the Master title, you still get that 1 or 2 point bonus.. If you live in a player city that offers a bonus, that is still active and encouraged as well.. Masters would still have a slight advantage over everyone else, but not to the huge degree the system is designed now.. Infact I think this would actually spark a little life in the game, as it would promote dabbling in professions.. I know too many, such as myself, get bored doing the same things over and over again.. Wouldn't it be prudent to introduce options to players to dabble in crafting and feel they have a chance..
Asteroids
Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:25 am
#2
Interesting. I see the analogy with EQ. I think maybe it would be a good idea that at novice everyonegains the same experimentation points. Keeping along the lines of skills, the advancement in the given profession would then provide more schematics. So you could make a novice item equally as well as a Master, but you would only be able to craft the items given at that level. In a way they attempted to do that, for example Weaponsmiths get 'better' weapon schematics as they advance. Where they got it wrong I feel is that the experimentation is also treated this way, so basically non Master items are worthless as everyone wants the best stuff.
LordSaibot
Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:41 am
#3
Most of the professions are this way. I admit that the crafting professions seem to suffer more in this category, but the entertainers and medics can only provide the best buffs at master.
In the combat area, it is true that dabblers seem to have it best, but every patch seems to change this. Dabbling is looked down upon, and is constantly nerfed in one form or another. Right now the hot topic is defensive stacking, but there have been other issues in the past. It appears that the player majority wants a class based system. I for one enjoy being able to take from each class what i want, but most people consider this to create a lack of balance. It would be nice if there was a general experimentation skill that you could dabble in.
Imagine if every profession had an experiment line, you could master a profession and pick up the experimentation of the other professions. This would also give you an excuse to pick up some of the schematics from that profession as well.
The point is, there are too many people who whine about things not being fair in the combat department for the devs to worry about what the game was intended to be. Unfortunately this affects the crafters the most. When you think about it it'd be kinda funny if there weren't any crafters. Pvp would really lack without meds, weapons, armor, bio clothing, or food.
saintchuck
Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:45 am
#4
Does everyone remember Holocron repeatedly stating that the players would find the best templates by combining the best from different professions? Apparently, they wanted us to find the best templates so they could 'fix' them.
cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:19 am
#5
TY for your input and thoughts.. I appreciate the discussion and thoughts..
I think one thing everyone will have to keep in mind is, "what will happen to professions once the hologrind is gone".. Currently there are ample numbers of various professions, but I think most of us would agree that if it wasn't for the holo craze, those numbers would be much different.. I fear in the long run people will become bored with any profession they choose in crafting, and with little or no hope in dabbling, and people feeling forced to grind in another will only make people leave the game..
I come from EQ where we are allowed to have 8 characters per server.. If I'm not in the mood to play a "tank", then i'll play a healer or whatever.. My options are wide and diverse.. Granted on SWG, we can't have multiple characters per server because of the fear it might cause with NO dependacy with others.. That I can agree with and understand.. But now the double edge blade cuts both ways.. Without the option to stay on the same server and play a different profession is frowned upon.. The inability to effectively dabble in other professions is going to hurt this game.. I think we all can agree that most people that tire of a given profession and need a break will not take the pain staking surrender of skills and grind in other areas.. People will stick with what they have, and when they finally have enough of it, they quit..
People only switched professions as much as they did recently because of the holo chase to Jedi, without that I think the professional breakdown would be much different.. Only time will tell, unfortunetly I will not be around to see that.. I have been a Master Musician and tried to dabble in crafting during those empty cantina times and to keep my interest, however since I refuse to give up my master title and skills, crafting was not an option.. I had 20 skill points to play with, without sacrificing my Music, but those 20 pts will do nothing for me in an elite crafting professions.. 15 pts for Novice, and5 points left to fill ONEbox.. Well, so much for that idea..
Hence, I'm cancelling, and will go back to EQ and see and enjoyall the new changes theyhave added in the last 2 expansions..
Puck_Starfire
Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:06 am
#6
I personally like the class-system. I come from "old-school" RPG'ing where skill-based games like GURPS were frowned upon and laughed at. Personally, I think you need some direction with classes. A true skill-based system would open the door to complete min/maxing by characters and IMO would not be fun. At least with some guidelines in place that say if you want to make Droids you can only be good if you Master, it forces players to specialize more and in a way creates some diversity. Imagine if everyone took Pistols, Crafting Experimentation, Harvesting, Dodge, and First Aid. I'm open to "multi-classing" yes. But as in real life, MMORPG's need direction with classes. I don't know of any Welders/Biologists/Doctors/Snipers out there in the real world.
cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:40 am
#7
I understand what you are saying Puck...
However, I problem is that SOE says it's skill based and advertises it as such.. But only 1/2 of the game is skill based, the other 1/2 class based.. Why do people mix and match combat templates, because skills obatined in one tree carry over to another.. Stacking.. This is not allowed in crafting.. Your expimental points in Architecture does not carry over into Weaponsmith.. etc etc..
So SOE what is it.. skill based or class base.. I hate when people call apples oranges.. call it what it is.. Combat is skilled based, Crafting is class based.. general speaking..Crafting can easily be skilled based just by adjusting the experimental part of product creation..
LadyGrey
Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:41 am
#8
Puck_Starfire wrote:
I don't know of any Welders/Biologists/Doctors/Snipers out there in the real world.
I have a son who is a Registered Nurse, knows computer programming, and is trained in medium and heavy weapons in the military (and keeps that current every year).
I qualify for first aid/CPR training every year, help to build high-yield weapons, trained in short swords (don't ask), do plumbing and electrical work, and do computer programming/software engineering.
Another son is a vehicle mechanic, welder, trained sniper/marksman (private training), computer networking engineer, and trained in first aid/CPR.
I think we're all out of skills points, though.
cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:46 am
#9
LadyGrey wrote:
Puck_Starfire wrote:
I don't know of any Welders/Biologists/Doctors/Snipers out there in the real world.
I have a son who is a Registered Nurse, knows computer programming, and is trained in medium and heavy weapons in the military (and keeps that current every year).
I qualify for first aid/CPR training every year, help to build high-yield weapons, trained in short swords (don't ask), do plumbing and electrical work, and do computer programming/software engineering.
Another son is a vehicle mechanic, welder, trained sniper/marksman (private training), computer networking engineer, and trained in first aid/CPR.
I think we're all out of skills points, though.
Ha Ha Ha.. I love it.. I am also a vet as well.. trained marksmanship/heavy weapons,, I also have a BBA degree majored in accounting, I cook and sew as well since I as a single for many years.. I'm currently taking additional college classes in my off times here and there.. I think I'm out of skill points too..
oops forgot to add.. I still retain my lifeguard certification and first aid as well..
Message Edited by cronus00 on 02-19-2004 07:47 AM
Puck_Starfire
Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:04 am
#10
Haha! Well you guys are DEFINATELY outta skill points and DEFINATELY have more time than me 
Heck I have enough problems working a retail job and trying to get through my biology degree grrrrr. Tho I used to do some programming too. (ya know back in the C++ and HTML days, soooo 5 years agolol)
cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:10 am
#11
Puck_Starfire wrote:
Haha! Well you guys are DEFINATELY outta skill points and DEFINATELY have more time than me
Heck I have enough problems working a retail job and trying to get through my biology degree grrrrr. Tho I used to do some programming too. (ya know back in the C++ and HTML days, soooo 5 years agolol)
OMGGGGGGGGG.. don't get me going.. I would hate to tell you about my skills in programming back when I took Basic, Cobald?, Pascal, Fortran.. etc etc.. YES.. I had skill points in computer programming as well, but mine was back 20 years ago in the haydays of Commodore 64/128 and virtually everything ran off floopy disc.. lmao
Message Edited by cronus00 on 02-19-2004 08:28 AM
Puck_Starfire
Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:32 am
#12
Yup I took all those languages in middle school lol. PASCAL too lol. If I could only remember ONE thing about those languages...... or how to operate an Apple II.Oh gawd I'm such an 80's child. I actually had to use a floppy disk the other day...a 3.5 but still. I was looking at it like, how do you use one of these again?
Ahh the hi-tech world of cd roms and 180gig hard drives and broadband internet. What would we have done if SWG had of come in cassette form?
cronus00
Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:56 am
#13
LOL @ Puck.. Who knows.. I can't imagine..
I still remember one game that I enjoyed so much playing on my Commadore 128.. "Elite".. I don't remember who developed it, but it was so addicting.. It allowed you to travel a galaxy collecting and trading resources over hundreds of planets, increasing your funds to upgrade your ship, which allowed you to travel into more dangerous areas to get better resources to trade with.. All combat was twitch and held in a space 3D world.. IF only they made a modern day version of that game now.. OH MY.. I think Earth & Beyond came close to attempting that, but didn't succeed.. Maybe one day E&B will add changes and make it so.. ELITE was so much fun..
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