Artisan Archive
Thread: The danger of AFK macroing.
First, if you are sick of this discussion -move along citizen - I will report anyone who trolls my thread. Constructive discussion or disagreement isappreciated.
AFK macroing is dangerous to the Artisan community. Artisans must have resources in order to craft their wares, and sampling is essential to new Artisans who do not have the cash to purchase either a harvester or resources. Sampling has been nerfed once (July 8 patch) in response to AFK macroing, and it is well on the path to being nerfed into nonexistance.
Now, I'm not going to get into the EULA or bannable offense debate - because I honestly don't believe that anyone would be banned without an explicit warning. There have been several 'warnings' about AFK sampling, but in order to see them, you have to put 2 and 2 together.
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Holocron wrote:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=56562&highlight=Macro#M56562
The intent behind the sampling changes is to make harvesters more desirable for the types that choose to AFK macro. The fact that we have AFK macroes using /sample at all is clearly wrong, since all those people should be using harvesters instead--the harvesters need to be more advantageous than the AFK macro.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=58873&highlight=Macro#M58873
Sampling in a macro being more efficient than harvesting was not intended, and though I hesitate to call it an exploit, people certainly gravitated to the most efficient means. This has the side effect of pushing up the simultaneous player numbers, which then make servers show as full and not let people in, which I think everyone agrees kinda sucks.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=56825&highlight=Macro#M56825
Actually, the general concern here is that harvesters are too fast even with this. We can see enough players who play it straight, without taking advantage of the bugs, doing quite well.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=58318&highlight=Macro#M58318
This is exactly why we want to break the /sample macro cycle (and for that matter, the dancing macro cycle).
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=58548&highlight=Macro#M58548
The problem is not macros. Players will use out of game macro programs instead if need be.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=56942&highlight=Macro#M56942
Increasing the time versus reducing the amount have the same net effect, which is net resources per minute declines. Either way, the magic threshold has to be "harvesters would be better than this."
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So, if we add together all of Holo's comments about AFK macroing what do we get?
1. While it is not being called an exploit, it is definitely something that is not intended. It is something that the Devs intend to stop.
2. Taking the /sample out of macroing isn't going to be the way that they will stop it.
3. The 'magic threshold' is that sampling will have to be nerfed to the point where it is slower than harvesters. I put that number at 1-3 unitsper minute.
I'm too cynical to believe that the community will ever be able to police itself. I posed the question 'why do you AFK sample' in another thread, and as I expected, the answer boiled down to 'because I can'. Well when the nerf comes, and have NO DOUBT that it's coming, and you want the devs to answer the question of why they did it - expect to hear 'because you couldn't'. You couldn't police yourselves, you couldn't play the game as intended, without abusing it.
Bianca Minola
This is yet another example of the mindset of 'it is better to nerf than to boost/fix' and I really dont understand why in this case
If they want to make harvesters more desirable, why do they not simply do it! Fix the power/maint problems (which usually occur when the servers have been taken down) where it is consumed at a much faster rate and reduce the re-deeding cost of wind generators.
Please note I am _not_ suggesting they change the resource cycle system, nor the fact that installations have a re-deeding cost, the cycle is needed to keep the playing field level for new players entering the market. But the current re-deeding cost of wind generators is approx 3x what you can buy them for on the bazaar (and you could make your own for less if you have the skills) and I've seen them go for under 1k on some vendors and thus only encourages you to let your generators burn (or not use them at all). Harvester maint/power costs seem fine to me except the problem of increased consumption (which I can only attribute to server downtime) - I leave my harvester with more than 24 hours of power and maint yet when I return within 24 hours it has always run out of one of the other - I would also suggest that the repair fee runs to the same scale as maint consumption (i.e. the cost to repair 24 hours of damage is the same as 24 hours of upkeep)
The answer is not to nerf sampling as this hurts the new player - the answer is to fix generators/harvester and make them more appealing/viable
...So these are intended to make sampling ab it more interactive. Over time, we plan to add more of these so that sampling can become more of a mini-game than it is now."
Sounds like they're looking into changing the way sampling works. If the suggestions in the post come to fruition AFK macroers may well do 1-3 resources/minute, while those who are not AFK macroers will do better by moving around and playing the /sample meta game.
Sounds like an eloquent solution to me, as AFK macroers seem to use AFK macroing to supplement their harvesters.
I will report anyone who trolls my thread.
You pretty much lost me after this sentence, I would love to discuss this issue with you, but dont care to now.
First, I am sick of this discussion, but couldn't resist responding once you cautioned "move along".
Second, it is disingenuousto complain about bandwidth considerations on SOE servers while clogging these boards with the same rants all the time. The first eleven thousand times you said you didn't like AFK sampling got the point across.I think you might need to move along to a new topic. It's difficult to figure out what you hope to accomplish. You admit that the community will not self-police and that the devs are likely to even out the harvesters so that they are the only viable way to sample. Does the community need to keep hearing this from you? Were you orphaned by macro samplers? Why the obsessive personal interest?
Third,do you play on dial-up or otherwise cannot stay connected for long periods of time? That might explain why you consider this an exploit - because you can't do it.
Fourth, and to respond directly to your points, you are free to infer whatever you'd like from the multiple, out of context quotes you reference below. You are probably on-target in your assessment of their thoughts, but unless and until the devs get involved directly in curtailing this behavior, it's still just speculation. It's a legitimate use of the tools which have been provided to players. SOE can change the toolset if they like, and people will adjust to it.
Until then, give it a rest.
Feel free to report me for disagreeing with your opinion in a public forum. That's certainly a sign of good sportsmanship.
After all this talk of macro sampling, i decided to try it for myself. I set it up last night, using the one that points the macro back at one of the UI buttons (so in effect, the macro is only about 6 lines long). I woke up this morning, flipped the monitor on, and i had over 2,000 units of Iron! Yay!
If everyone else is doing this, why shouldn't I?
Jolva wrote:
After all this talk of macro sampling, i decided to try it for myself. I set it up last night, using the one that points the macro back at one of the UI buttons (so in effect, the macro is only about 6 lines long). I woke up this morning, flipped the monitor on, and i had over 2,000 units of Iron! Yay!
If everyone else is doing this, why shouldn't I?
Be careful! You're degrading his post and he's going to report you!
Well guess I'll add my 2 cents to another macro sampling thread. Personally, I don't understand the furor over it. I've tried the macros and harvestors. Once I hit Engineering IV (which isn't hard to get to) there was not doubt that harvestors were the way to go. Believe me when I say I have no problem with macro sampling. I don't think it should be a bannable offense. I say, live and let live. It's simply not andefficient way to get the resources you need to craft.
Granted, there have been some problems with harvestors and some war stories. If you've had a bad experience with them, my suggestion is to give it another try. Absolutely, when I hit novice weaponsmith there is no way I could ever manage my resources by using macro sampling.I need two metals, an ore, a petro and a gas. I rarely do it except when I need a short supply of resource and it has a good concentration within the building radius (outside of town). To do serious crafting, you need to find a way to make harvestors work.
Here are my suggestions for those thatare struggling with harvestors and need to wean off macroing (as I did):
1) Put up a wind generator to get some power. Have a goodsupply of power before you start your first harvestor. Don't expect to macro nuke to power it.You'll end up saying I'm just macroing so I can harvest something that I don't want to macro! 
2)Start small. One mineralharvestor. Use it for your main mineral. For me it was for copper.Use your surveying skills and find a seriously good vein,even if it is a bit of a run. Once you see the 24 hour yield from a 80+ vein of copper you'll ask yourself why you didn't do this earlier.
3)Study therotation of resources on your planet. If you are mid cycle you may want to wait till the beginning of a new rotation toput a harvestor up. It's frustrating to getthe first one up and find it'sno good in a few days.
4) Run missions. FedEx, Rebel, Imperial, Mob's....whatever.You will need some cash on the side to support yourharvestors. If you don't have any credits at the time you read this, then subsitute this for #1. You want about 10K of credits in bank to startyour first harvestor.
5) Expect there will be setbacks. Harvestor bugs. Mishaps, etc. OnceI got the routine down with one and managed it into my budget, thenI ended up with a second, a third.... The yield was justtoo good to pass up. I would say that atEngineering IV I was able to run two harvestors withtwo missions a day or less.That's all you need (a metal and a petro). Once I hitnovice smith, I needed 4.
6) Multitask your harvestors. I can get away with three at novice smith if I overlap resources. Metal and gem, ore and nuke, etc. It's very feasible. Have one of your harvestors overlapped with a nuke resource so you have a back up power. I can run four harvestors off a mid 40% wind power generator with one of my harvestor alternating nuke.
7) When resources start rotating, double check what else you can get on that site. Sometimes there something there you didn't anticipate. I reclaim my deed to save me resources, but your choice.
8) Bank part of what you harvest. This will get you through the resource dry spells (end and beginning of rotations.)
Hope this helps those frustrated with harvestors. Again, this is not meant to be an anti-macro note. I've already said, I don't have a problem with it. I think it helps the artisan starting out to get their footing. I don't think a beginning artisan should have to incur the expense of the harvestors at the start. It's too frustrating doing this and getting a handle on crafting. Buying resources on the open market is simply too expensive.
Macroing is simply self limiting. It won't support upper level crafting needs. That's why I think our discussion groups should MOVE ON to other things. I'm all for free expression, but this daily pre-occupation with two or three threads of macro sampling this and macro sampling that keeps us from the more productive discussions of our craft.
I do macro sample AND run harvesters AND destroy missions AND delivery missions AND grind to get XP, and I try to do it all in the two hour window that I'm normally available to play after a couple kill missions while running to my harvesters and killing most of that two hours its time for me to grind out some xp because no one wants a d18 from a novice weaponsmith then they can get a master crafted scout blaster for only 2k more.
Well I might as well get something out of my grinding time so I find a spot to macro sample until I log off for the night. NOW you want to take that away from me. While your at it I suppose you could steal my girlfriend, burn my house down, shoot my dog and wreck my car. Just take it all.
I still do hand sample a lot and Iam a Master Artisan. The reason why I still hand sample is that some of the best spots Ive found have spawned in no build zones. If they fix the way resources spawn so that 90% spots are not spawning in towns and no build areas and more harvesters will get used.
Unfortunally as long as the mechaincs are avaible in the game to write the macros they will be used. Make /sample unusable in a macro and the problem will be fixed.
Jaliss AnarawynMaster Artisan/Novice Merchant/Novice chef
Cyberthugg wrote:
They should have never included macros if they didn't want us to use them. What use do they have other than to automate functions?
Macros can be used for fighting, or even just for funny things. I have a macro that' simply:
/jump;/shout TOYOTA!
Also, macros can be used to hawk your wares on the open market. You don't think people are typing these long messages repeatedly, do you?
Macros have a place in the game and to an extent, I even think Macro Sampling is ok. Players who ONLY macro sample are not going to advance in the overall aspect of the game. Sure, they'll get Surveying IV really fast, but so what?
I'll take my harvesters anyday.
I think the main point of the thread was to state that the Devs didn't intend this. With the ability to macro in the first placeit is a major oversight on their part.
The other point is that the devs will fix/nerf/correct it in one way or another as long as they stand by their word that they did not intend it. Who knows, they might let it slide? I doubt it though since the posts from them hinted at the evil "e" word.
There isn't any point in flaming the post. But I can understand since we've seen this issue come up numerous times
I guess the other point was to get people to stop doing it. But people are going to regardless until the Devs step up to the plate with the fix/nerf bat. I can't see this being bannable. Maybe if someone is idle for more than a certain period of time you get logged off? If you aren't actually sitting in front of the game playing it then you shouldn't be signed on. I do agree with that. If you need a break for restroom, lunch or whatever sure, but not just staying in for 6+ hours AFK. I can see the flames now as I haven't thought of reasons on how it would backfire but I'm sure someone could come up with a way.
I personally don't do it. Tried and I couldn't get it to work and I didn't have the time to tweak it and didn't really care to. I have harvesters and wind power. I have what I need.
ok, i'm done, another meaningless post