Artisan Archive
Thread: We are being discriminated against
Page 1 of 3
Beery
Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:49 am
#1
In recent months I've come to realise that non-combat players aren't just playing catch-up because combat professions are more important. We are being actively discriminated against by the developers who don't accept that non-combat professions are an integral part (and an equally important part) of the game. This discrimination may be subconscious, but it is nonetheless real.
Non-combat classes are (and always have been) waaaay behind other professions in terms of accessible content, and there's no reason this should be so. Many of us have weak or even nonexistent combat skills. In light of this, we need new content, and lots of it, so that we can enjoy aspects of the game that other professions have enjoyed from the start. Here are some examples:
1. Jabba's Palace Theme Park:
Non-combat classes need access to Jabba's Palace that can be gained without killing anyone. Create a system of quests that rely on entertainment, crafting or medical skills that will allow those classes to do non-combat quests for Jabba's henchmen, and, after a number of quests equal to those required of combat professionals, to finally gain access to Jabba's throneroom. Non-combat-oriented players are effectively denied access to this area (or it's that much more difficult) simply because their skills and playstyle don't fit with a combat profile. Why discriminate against players who don't like combat? Jabba's palace is one of the big entertainer hang-outs in the movies - it's not just for bounty hunters and killers - all sorts of hangers-on are there, and surely they didn't all get there by taking murder assignments. We non-combat folks should have access like everyone else, and we should gain faction points for doing quests related to our fields. After all, do we really believe that Jabba's chef got where he is by killing Sandpeople? Did Jabba's band get into the palace by shooting Valerian thugs? I doubt it.
Non-combat classes need access to Jabba's Palace that can be gained without killing anyone. Create a system of quests that rely on entertainment, crafting or medical skills that will allow those classes to do non-combat quests for Jabba's henchmen, and, after a number of quests equal to those required of combat professionals, to finally gain access to Jabba's throneroom. Non-combat-oriented players are effectively denied access to this area (or it's that much more difficult) simply because their skills and playstyle don't fit with a combat profile. Why discriminate against players who don't like combat? Jabba's palace is one of the big entertainer hang-outs in the movies - it's not just for bounty hunters and killers - all sorts of hangers-on are there, and surely they didn't all get there by taking murder assignments. We non-combat folks should have access like everyone else, and we should gain faction points for doing quests related to our fields. After all, do we really believe that Jabba's chef got where he is by killing Sandpeople? Did Jabba's band get into the palace by shooting Valerian thugs? I doubt it.
2. The Emperor's Retreat:
Same as above. Why should we not be able to entertain, craft or heal for the Emperor and gain Imperial faction points by doing quests related to our respective fields? Why should we be effectively denied access to a big part of the game simply because we choose a non-combat profession as our primary (sometimes our sole) method of advancement?
Same as above. Why should we not be able to entertain, craft or heal for the Emperor and gain Imperial faction points by doing quests related to our respective fields? Why should we be effectively denied access to a big part of the game simply because we choose a non-combat profession as our primary (sometimes our sole) method of advancement?
3. Rebel Base, Nym's Stronghold, etc.:
Again, a series of quests that denies non-combat players any access because it is regarded as a theme park purely for combat classes. Give entertainers, crafters and medics access to the Rebel theme park with all its content and faction points. Create quests that demand crafting or entertaining as the method for gaining points. Why must everything be combat-related? Why not have multiple methods of getting into these places?
Again, a series of quests that denies non-combat players any access because it is regarded as a theme park purely for combat classes. Give entertainers, crafters and medics access to the Rebel theme park with all its content and faction points. Create quests that demand crafting or entertaining as the method for gaining points. Why must everything be combat-related? Why not have multiple methods of getting into these places?
The recent addition of swoop tracks was a step forward for those of us who don't like combat, or who don't put their skill points into combat-related skills, but it still leaves us with a lot of areas where we're lacking in access to existing content. Giving non-combat players equal access to the theme parks is essential, both for giving these players desperately needed content as a reward for progressing in their professions and for balancing out the social element of the game.
Why discriminate against people who may have no interest in combat. The social and support professions are currently without meaningful content in terms of quests. We finish levelling our careers and we're faced with a desert in terms of content. We're thirsting for quests, but there are none to be had that suit our playstyle.
These changes are desperately needed just to bring us non-combat players in line with the rest of the community. Please, developers, give us access to areas that should have been accessible to us from the start.
Message Edited by Beery on 01-22-2005 11:58 AM
Beery
Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:53 am
#2
In recent months I've come to realise that non-combat players aren't just playing catch-up because combat professions are more important. We are being actively discriminated against by the developers who don't accept that non-combat professions are an integral part (and an equally important part) of the game. This discrimination may be subconscious, but it is nonetheless real.
Non-combat classes are (and always have been) waaaay behind other professions in terms of accessible content, and there's no reason this should be so. Many of us have weak or even nonexistent combat skills. In light of this, we need new content, and lots of it, so that we can enjoy aspects of the game that other professions have enjoyed from the start. Here are some examples:
1. Jabba's Palace Theme Park:
Non-combat classes need access to Jabba's Palace that can be gained without killing anyone. Create a system of quests that rely on entertainment, crafting or medical skills that will allow those classes to do non-combat quests for Jabba's henchmen, and, after a number of quests equal to those required of combat professionals, to finally gain access to Jabba's throneroom. Non-combat-oriented players are effectively denied access to this area (or it's that much more difficult) simply because their skills and playstyle don't fit with a combat profile. Why discriminate against players who don't like combat? Jabba's palace is one of the big entertainer hang-outs in the movies - it's not just for bounty hunters and killers - all sorts of hangers-on are there, and surely they didn't all get there by taking murder assignments. We non-combat folks should have access like everyone else, and we should gain faction points for doing quests related to our fields. After all, do we really believe that Jabba's chef got where he is by killing Sandpeople? Did Jabba's band get into the palace by shooting Valerian thugs? I doubt it.
Non-combat classes need access to Jabba's Palace that can be gained without killing anyone. Create a system of quests that rely on entertainment, crafting or medical skills that will allow those classes to do non-combat quests for Jabba's henchmen, and, after a number of quests equal to those required of combat professionals, to finally gain access to Jabba's throneroom. Non-combat-oriented players are effectively denied access to this area (or it's that much more difficult) simply because their skills and playstyle don't fit with a combat profile. Why discriminate against players who don't like combat? Jabba's palace is one of the big entertainer hang-outs in the movies - it's not just for bounty hunters and killers - all sorts of hangers-on are there, and surely they didn't all get there by taking murder assignments. We non-combat folks should have access like everyone else, and we should gain faction points for doing quests related to our fields. After all, do we really believe that Jabba's chef got where he is by killing Sandpeople? Did Jabba's band get into the palace by shooting Valerian thugs? I doubt it.
2. The Emperor's Retreat:
Same as above. Why should we not be able to entertain, craft or heal for the Emperor and gain Imperial faction points by doing quests related to our respective fields? Why should we be effectively denied access to a big part of the game simply because we choose a non-combat profession as our primary (sometimes our sole) method of advancement?
Same as above. Why should we not be able to entertain, craft or heal for the Emperor and gain Imperial faction points by doing quests related to our respective fields? Why should we be effectively denied access to a big part of the game simply because we choose a non-combat profession as our primary (sometimes our sole) method of advancement?
3. Rebel Base, Nym's Stronghold, etc.:
Again, a series of quests that denies non-combat players any access because it is regarded as a theme park purely for combat classes. Give entertainers, crafters and medics access to the Rebel theme park with all its content and faction points. Create quests that demand crafting or entertaining as the method for gaining points. Why must everything be combat-related? Why not have multiple methods of getting into these places?
Again, a series of quests that denies non-combat players any access because it is regarded as a theme park purely for combat classes. Give entertainers, crafters and medics access to the Rebel theme park with all its content and faction points. Create quests that demand crafting or entertaining as the method for gaining points. Why must everything be combat-related? Why not have multiple methods of getting into these places?
The recent addition of swoop tracks was a step forward for those of us who don't like combat, or who don't put their skill points into combat-related skills, but it still leaves us with a lot of areas where we're lacking in access to existing content. Giving non-combat players equal access to the theme parks is essential, both for giving these players desperately needed content as a reward for progressing in their professions and for balancing out the social element of the game.
Why discriminate against people who may have no interest in combat. The social and support professions are currently without meaningful content in terms of quests. We finish levelling our careers and we're faced with a desert in terms of content. We're thirsting for quests, but there are none to be had that suit our playstyle.
These changes are desperately needed just to bring us non-combat players in line with the rest of the community. Please, developers, give us access to areas that should have been accessible to us from the start.
Message Edited by Beery on 01-22-2005 12:46 PM
Beery
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:32 am
#3
Here's the problem I have with this game in a nutshell - people don't care about each other in this game. Look at my first post -after just 5 minutes of my post being published onlytwopeople felt strongly enough to award stars, and bothawarded me 1 star (and they were too cowardly to post reasons for it). This shows how antagonistic the community is towards anycriticism - even constructive criticism such as I wrote above: 100% of those who care enough about what I said(i.e. my fellow artisans)don't just 'not care' about their fellow players - they activelyhate their fellow players.I find that this attitude is pervasive: the SWG forumcommunityas a wholeis not open to criticism, it is not supportive of community members who are discouraged - more than that, it is actively non-supportive of its members. This is a major reasonwhy SWG is dying.
If it was ONLY that the developers didn't care about us non-combat folks, that would bea thing I could live with because I would get support from fellow players, but the community - even theartisan community who I would think would be sympathetic-is clearly actively antagonistic to even constructive criticism.
Message Edited by Beery on 01-22-2005 12:37 PM
Fodder650
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:36 am
#4
SOE hired 20 new devs to work on professions. This is a step in the right direction. We are all more then well aware that the artisan missions are borked. But what I dont think you see is that Artisans and crafters in general have more content then the combat guys will ever see. Sure we dont have theme parks but they take a couple hours and your out.
We socialize more then any other class even including entertainers. We spend more time working out that last nth of numbers for our products. We are always pushing forward to succeed and better our competition. We have to learn the market, know our competitions numbers, know what sells and what will sit on the vendors for months. We have to watch every shift of over material constantly. We got a bunch of loot (usefullness in question) in the last patch plus we are getting a couple things in the new patch.
In short crafters make there own content. Its not easy to design a theme park where you would craft your way to a badge. Thats not to say it can't be done because it can be. Im just saying that its easier to do a combat one. And there is crafting content if you do the village quests. I havent seen plans for a crafter theme park yet and i don't think we will.
But if you find me a bored crafter i'll show you one thats poor or in the wrong market
(for the record i didnt one star you)
We socialize more then any other class even including entertainers. We spend more time working out that last nth of numbers for our products. We are always pushing forward to succeed and better our competition. We have to learn the market, know our competitions numbers, know what sells and what will sit on the vendors for months. We have to watch every shift of over material constantly. We got a bunch of loot (usefullness in question) in the last patch plus we are getting a couple things in the new patch.
In short crafters make there own content. Its not easy to design a theme park where you would craft your way to a badge. Thats not to say it can't be done because it can be. Im just saying that its easier to do a combat one. And there is crafting content if you do the village quests. I havent seen plans for a crafter theme park yet and i don't think we will.
But if you find me a bored crafter i'll show you one thats poor or in the wrong market
(for the record i didnt one star you)
Beery
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:40 am
#5
But none of what you wrote argues against non-combat orientedtheme parkcontent being added. While you may be satisfied with what you have, I, and many like me, are not. It's not just about you. Why not add more content? Are you really saying it would hurt your game experience if crafters, medics and entertainers had equal access to theme parks based on their non-combatskills? If so, then I must conclude thatyou're simply acting out of misguidedreactionary zeal.
In short, why is your only argument that 'we have enough content'? If more and variedcontentcan be added, why not add it?
Message Edited by Beery on 01-22-2005 12:51 PM
Fodder650
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:52 am
#6
IM not against added content. Ok let me say it to you like this.
Come up with ideas for Crafter theme parks. Ones that would fit in the Star Wars theme and ones that would fit in the game theme.
Come up with ideas for Crafter theme parks. Ones that would fit in the Star Wars theme and ones that would fit in the game theme.
Beery
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:54 am
#7
I thought I did that in my first post. What do you think all those paragraphs are about? You did read my first post before one-starring it, didn't you? I'm not asking for new theme parks, all I'm suggesting is new content for those that already exist.
Perhaps my original post was too general and not specific enough, but it doesn't take a genius to fill in the details - have chefs make certain foods for Jabba's henchmen, have entertainers play or dance for them, or make instruments for them, have medics cure them. There's lots that can be done that springs to mind quite readily.
It seems you're trying toturn the discussion away from your own reactionary responseand focusing on my reasons for adding new content. The question is, why would you not want such content? Heck, you even admitted that you're not against it, so why are you still arguing as ifit would be unwelcome?
Anyway, I'm not going to get into a battle about this. If you want to criticise me for an idea that you even admit would be a positive feature of the game, then there's not muchanyone (least of all me)can do toconvince you.
Message Edited by Beery on 01-22-2005 01:19 PM
Fodder650
Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:55 pm
#8
Again I am not the person one-starring you. And i have no reason to lie about this. And your right you did explain this in your post.
MisterLeebo
Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:37 pm
#9
I think it's true you're not getting a lot of help from Themeparks, but with all of these new loot publishes it seems I need to find a Master Artisan if I want anything I find made. I've got dozens of random schematics requiring DEs, Tailors, Architects, and Artisans to put together for me and in my opinion I don't see the difference from a crafting perspective between crafting an item because an NPCasks you to and crafting an item because a Player asks you to.
The artisan andservice professions in SWG are unlike any class in any MMORPG ever made. Even as a cleric / defender / medic / whatever in other games you still are required to advance throughkilling enemiesinstead of being rewarded for healing allies so I'd argue that SWG has shown more attention to players who want to advance without fighting than any other MMORPG, and in fact RPG in general, ever.
There is a lack of game-content all around, for everybody. The point of the game is to come up with player-made content, which is why you don't get asked to craft an item from an NPC, but the way the loot is set up so if you advertise yourself and make connections, real people will send you tells asking you to help them out in ways that actually do affect the game (You'll see the fruits of your labor when your weapon is used to destroy a Krayt Dragon or your decoration completes the decor of a PA Hall, whatever) in ways doing quests for NPCs would never do.
Darkstarcrafter
Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:43 pm
#10
i am with MisterLeebo, From a crafter point of vew.....
its true we cant get into themparks and that would be nice from personal experence i feel that crafters get more atention from the other players AND programers because with out us, this game could not run as it does... i mke stuff for other prople all the time.
MisterLeebo
Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:56 pm
#11
Darkstarcrafter wrote:
i am with MisterLeebo, From a crafter point of vew.....
its true we cant get into themparks and that would be nice from personal experence i feel that crafters get more atention from the other players AND programers because with out us, this game could not run as it does... i mke stuff for other prople all the time.
I didn't 5* star you for the message, but because I noticed this was your very first post so now you've got the highest Average Star Rating of anyone, I bet!
KyorD
Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:18 am
#13
I understand your concern. When I first started playing, I was an artisian/medic. I was happy as that for a long time until I decided to become a Doc. I had to start hunting for my resources. It was also the same time that I decided to choose a faction. I had to pick up a combat skill. I was simply a matter of survival.
But you are right. This game is completely combat driven. I wonder if people ever stop to think about this...
Without crafters, healers, and entertainers....all the combat people would have no weapons, no armor, never have wounds healed, never have battle fatigue healed, never have houses or vehicles, and never have mind buff, stat buffs, Vasarian Brandy, Muon Gold....the list go on.
It is an unfair balance that I am sure will, unfortunately, never change. 
Message Edited by KyorD on 01-22-2005 02:19 PM
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