Artisan Archive
Thread: Non-Masters and experimentation: An idea
I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be better to give it its own thread for comments and such.
I've been working with some of the other crafting correspondents trying to dream up ways to make the game more fun for non-master crafting elites.
One of the core issues, in my opinion, is that there is nearly nothing that a novice, say Weaponsmith, can make that will sell. One of the key issues isn't the schematics, there are some Okay products in the novice box, or other lower level boxes. The problem is experimentation.
As a non-master, you are held back by three 'gates' from making high quality products:
1- Schematic selection: The more you learn, the better items you can make, typically
2- Assembly and Experimentation skill: As you advance, your chances of high quality assembly rolls and experimentation rolls, reducing critical failures and increasing Amazing successes.
3- Experimentation Points: you get one at novice and one for every 10 points of experimentation skill. These represent "Attempts" to experiment the item you are making. The more attempts, ultimately, the better the product. It can make a huge difference in the final product.
As a novice, I think it is very appropriate that 'gates' 1 and 2 above are correct and appropriate. I take issue with gate 3. I've proposed giving a crafter of any skill level 10 experimentation points. No increase in Experimentation skill, mind you, just the points. Their chances of a great success experimenting will be less than a master, crit fails more frequent.
The idea is that a novice should be able to make their schematics as well as is possible, given the rolls and access to good resources.
My thinking is that this will allow non-masters to produce products with actual value on the market. If this becomes true, the pressure to 'power grind' to master will be lessened and your advancement in the skill will be come more 'natural'. You'd level as a side-effect of making your product to sell.
To clarify:
Currently, Experimentation Points (EP) are calculated from the player's Experimentation Skill (ES) this way:
EP = ES / 10
EP must be an integer, rounded down.
So a novice has +10 ES, so they get EP = 10 /10 = 1 experimentation point.
I propose changing the formula to this:
EP = 10 + Abs( ( ES - 100) / 10 ) )
So a novice with +10 ES will get EP = 10 + Abs ( (100 - 10)/10) = 10
A Master with +20 from SEAs in their clothing (A "12 point master") would calculate this way:
EP = 10 + Abs ( (120 - 100)/10) = 10 + (20/10) = 10 + 2 = 12
So Masters who have the full clothing would get the same bonuses they get now. In other words, no change at all to masters. Further, no changes would need to be made to SEAs or racial bonuses, just to the EP formula.
What do y'all think?
Guru
*edited for clarity, adding the calculations *
Message Edited by Guruweaver on 01-27-2005 02:08 PM
I like this idea - it doesn't really make sense that a master can experiment more than a novice.
Being better or worse (more or less experienced) shouldn't affect how much you can experiment on something, but it would affect how well these experiments turn out.
Getting a critical failure on an experimentation when you only have a few points to experiment with is very annoying. Having a few more means you may bring a worthless object up to something you can at least break even on.
What I was thinking, but didn't say (I'll go back and adjust) that as your experimentation skill increases, you get the ability to get more Experimentation points from SEAs.
Use this forumla to calculate Experimentation Points:
Experimentation Points = 10 + Abs ((Experimenatation Skill - 100)/10)
So, if you have +20 Experimentation SEAs in your outfit. At Novice, you'd have +30 Experimentation Skill.
Calculate: EP = 10 + Abs((30 - 100) /10) = 10 + Abs (-30/10) = 10 + 0.3 = 10
Experimentation points can only be integers, round down.
No changes need to be made to SEAs or racial bonuses. Just change the formula that calculates Experimentation Points.
Guru
I only say this because I've been a master artisan for a while and am disinclined to make master artisan items because of the experimentation failure rate. Why shouldn't a long-time master artisan have a bigadvantage over a novice? .... even a novice with SEA's? (I'm extremely frustrated right now because I can't fill an order because of the experimentation issue. My product isn't good enough for the DE. Bleh!)
BeesKnees wrote:
The only issue I have with this is the cost of the SEA's. Currently a +12 artisan experimentation tape is going for 7 million on the scylla trade forum. It's been a nightmare and frustration to get any artisan tapes. Seems like we should get something for length of time as a master in a profession. Just a thought.
Myleah ~ Master Tailor/Master Artisan/Master Merchant ~MindHarp Couture ~ STC, Naboo
Etema ~ Master Dancer/Master Image Designer
Maylee ~ Master Fencer/Master Scout/Ranger 4/0/4/0 (Tracker)
BeesKnees wrote:
My product isn't good enough for the DE. Bleh!)
OT -
What is the DE wanting you to make that requires Experimentation? 
Experimentation on Artisan parts has ZERO impact on anything that a DE needs. If the DE in question doesn't take your word for it, point him my way and I will set him straight. 
If things work like I suspect/hope, this change could be 'easy' and a possible candidate for a hotfix/minipublish.
Sci, good point about the factories. It complicates things, though. The idea of limiting factory run based on assembly skill isn't a bad one, but I don't know if we should wander off too much into that territory. The more complex we make it, the less likely it is to happen. Presuming, of course, that it's a good thing to do.
I'm still thinking that Masters won't see their market harmed by this. I expect a goodly chunk of their income is generated by sales of items who's schematics are certed to high level boxes, thus not available to the novices.
Guru
Guruweaver wrote:
I'm still thinking that Masters won't see their market harmed by this. I expect a goodly chunk of their income is generated by sales of items who's schematics are certed to high level boxes, thus not available to the novices.
Guru
Even though there are goodies in those master boxes, most of the goodies come in the trees themselves and not at that master level box. So a 4004 or such can do nearly as much as a master. A crafter dabbler may not be too welcomed since the combat dabblers aren't.
It would be easy to do and address a few problems, but those problems aren't that big of a concern, in my opinion. Why I would rather see a content driven path to mastery than dabbler crafters.
Meplorium wrote:
Even though there are goodies in those master boxes, most of the goodies come in the trees themselves and not at that master level box. So a 4004 or such can do nearly as much as a master. A crafter dabbler may not be too welcomed since the combat dabblers aren't.
It would be easy to do and address a few problems, but those problems aren't that big of a concern, in my opinion. Why I would rather see a content driven path to mastery than dabbler crafters.
Mep,
I think you are missing the bigger picture here. Guru isn't talking about a change to only Artisans. He is refering to a change to all Artisan based crafting professions. Professions such as Weaponsmith and Armorsmith that are extremely dependent on Experimentation points would greatly benefit from such a change.
Something else to point out is majority of the player base does not 'grind' out professions. A change such as this is geared towards the largest percentage of the player base, that progress thier skills in a more natural manner. People that grind to Master usually have the resources or backing to do so. Its the people who typically try to play the game as intended that are most negatively impacted by not having the Experimentation points available.
Drashk wrote:
Something else to point out is majority of the player base does not 'grind' out professions. A change such as this is geared towards the largest percentage of the player base, that progress thier skills in a more natural manner. People that grind to Master usually have the resources or backing to do so. Its the people who typically try to play the game as intended that are most negatively impacted by not having the Experimentation points available.
I think the majority of players don't want to grind out professions, but feel they need to in order to make worthwhileitems to sell.
Guru, my manufacturing schematic limit was mainly a option if people feel the Master/Non-Master imbalance overcorrects too far towards non-Master with this change. Although with the increased factory time from multiple experiments, the fact that a non-Master is going to be mass producing slower (or has to get really lucky during experimentation) may be enough.
Meplorium: Why shouldn't a 0044 Chef be nearly as viable as a Master within their chosen specialization (in this case drinks)? And a Master still gets some additional bonuses (more schematics, better chance at amazing success, able to get 12 points instead of 10 or 11 at xxx4). To tell the truth, I don't see "dabblers" as being too much of a problem for most crafting profs. For ones like Armorsmith and Weaopnsmith, their most desirable products are already in the master box (composite, T21, Power Hammer). Heck, opening the market to more players might help with price inflation.
One area that may be negatively impacted by this are cross-profession components where quality matters. If a dabbler can make these themselves without commiting to Mastery of the other profession, many crafters may choose to do so. I've already mentioned BEs. Armorsmiths may prefer to get 0200 tailor for access to Wookiee battle padding (since they'd also have the full 10 experimentation points for it). Are there any other components similar to these? The artisan components needed by DE and Architect don't count, as those are Master schematics.
Drashk wrote:
Mep,
I think you are missing the bigger picture here. Guru isn't talking about a change to only Artisans.
Something else to point out is majority of the player base does not 'grind' out professions.
I got the bigger picture and when referring to artisans professions I don't mean just the artisan profession.
The majority of players not grinding is news to me. Where did you get this information?
My understanding of this games mechanics, especially those leading to jedi, is one of constant grinding. That is typical of this games genre.
I will say that this idea has it's heart in the right place, but does open the door to things like armorsmithspicking up just enough tailor to bypass them to get their wookiee armor pads or architects bypassing DEs to get storage units for crafting stations. Those 'unforeseen consequences' is what troubles me. True tailors or DEs are not out of the loop on those things, when they use to be part of that process. There are some that even want to see schematic trading go away to reinforce those profession dependances.
I just don't see getting that master box as that big of a deal. Figuring out how to craft, knowing the market so you know what to craft, what to price things at, where to get resources and which ones to get, getting skill tapes and making a name for yourself to be successful at that profession makes all those clicks seem rather trival.
I would rather some kind of interactive quest base system fix this problem than one that could make profession interdependancesthrown out the door or cause other problems.