Artisan Archive
Thread: Non-Masters and experimentation: An idea
Guruweaver
Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:01 pm
#14
I'd prefer a quest system as well, however I think the chances of that happening are quite slim.
However, the chances of getting a change like the one I propose is much greater, as all it really requires, as far as I can tell, is a change to the Experimentation Point calculation formula.
Yes, good quests are really needed in this game, however I don't see that happening for a while. View this as a stop-gap, if you like.
Guru
However, the chances of getting a change like the one I propose is much greater, as all it really requires, as far as I can tell, is a change to the Experimentation Point calculation formula.
Yes, good quests are really needed in this game, however I don't see that happening for a while. View this as a stop-gap, if you like.
Guru
BeesKnees
Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:26 pm
#15
Drashk wrote:
BeesKnees wrote:
My product isn't good enough for the DE. Bleh!)
OT -
What is the DE wanting you to make that requires Experimentation?
Experimentation on Artisan parts has ZERO impact on anything that a DE needs. If the DE in question doesn't take your word for it, point him my way and I will set him straight.
You mean that if I make a control unit and it comes out at -2 that it would work for a factory run and would be okay as a component in micro sensor suites and would satisfy the needs of the DE?
btw ... thanks for addressing this.
DaBarius
Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:37 am
#16
Umm.. (10! + ES) / sin(120%- Abs)^2= ?
j/k
sounds like a nice plan.. gj guru
BeesKnees
Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:52 am
#17
The only issue I have with this is the cost of the SEA's. Currently a +12 artisan experimentation tape is going for 7 million on the scylla trade forum. It's been a nightmare and frustration to get any artisan tapes. Seems like we should get something for length of time in a profession. Just a thought.
Myleah ~ Master Tailor/Master Artisan/Master Merchant ~MindHarp Couture ~ STC, Naboo
Etema ~ Master Dancer/Master Image Designer
Maylee ~ Master Fencer/Master Scout/Ranger 4/0/4/0 (Tracker)
sciguyCO
Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:56 am
#18
I do like this. It allows Novices to make items just as good as a Master (not counting SEAs at this point), it's just harder.
Novices have fewer experimentation mods, so their risk is higher than a Master fora given number of experimentation points spent, and they're less likely to get an "all great success" item (which is pretty run-of-the-mill for Masters). If they go the safest route and experiment one point at a time, the item complexity goes up by 10 (compared to the 2 or 3 experiments that a Master would do), which increases factory time.
This also opens up the market for component sales. Right now, because Novices can't really make anything worth selling, the fact that they may not have the component schematic for a particular item (or the advanced version of a component)is no great loss.If a Novice Weaponsmith wants to make a sword with an advanced sword core, he or she will have to buy it from another player, and under the new system the resulting sword will be viable to sell. A non-Master chef with Entrees IV can make Bivoli, but can't make a heavy food additive to go into it.
The "EP = 10 + Abs( ( ES - 100) / 10 ) )" calculation makes SEAs useful only for the roll improvement at lower levels. Once a crafter hits level 4 of the experiementation branch (+90 ES for most profs) they can get an 11th point with +20 worth of SEAs.
{reading over this again, I should clarify: I think the above is a good thing}.
I am wondering about how non-artisan crafters are going to be affected. Some (scouts, rangers, musicians, smugglers) won't matter since they don't experiment. Others (medic, doctors, CMs) are "quarter crafters" in that they have one branch with all their schematics and assembly/experimentation mods, and the other three branches grant the abilities to use those items. If the experimentation change is applied to medical crafting, that might open up the possibility of dabblers (medic more than doc/CM) who only craft the items for sale at near-Master quality. This could be seen as either a good thing (more items for sale) or a bad thing (dabblers taking too much from more dedicated non-dabblers).
Bio-engineer is a horse of a different color (probably with 10k HAM and high Kinetic resist 
). I don't know about tailors, but a subset of chefsprefer to take BE themselves for their food tissue supply. Right now, only taking BE 0404 for the tissue schematics and experimentation is barely viable due to only 7 expeirimentation points and lacking the heavy Nutrition tissue schematic. Most chefs going this route go full MBE for the extra 3 points and heavy nutritient. If the experimentation point limitation is lifted, I'm afraid that chef dabblers in BE may dilute an already put-upon profession.
). I don't know about tailors, but a subset of chefsprefer to take BE themselves for their food tissue supply. Right now, only taking BE 0404 for the tissue schematics and experimentation is barely viable due to only 7 expeirimentation points and lacking the heavy Nutrition tissue schematic. Most chefs going this route go full MBE for the extra 3 points and heavy nutritient. If the experimentation point limitation is lifted, I'm afraid that chef dabblers in BE may dilute an already put-upon profession. One last suggestion. While it may take more attempts for a non-Master to get results equivalent to a Master, once they achieve a good result, they can then make a factory schematic to generate quite a lot of items. This may lessen the reward of being Master by too much. I propose tying the max "Manufacturing Limit" of schematics toAssemblyMod * 10 (but still capped at 1000). Components may need to be exempt from this, or use a different multiplier. Or is that an overly complicated addition?
Gooney
Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:29 am
#19
Ya this would be great... Just think, me as a fella with Master Artisan, Master TKM, Scout XX2X, Chef XX3X, and Armorsmith 4XXX. Think what I would be able to do.
-Collect all my own resources...very cheaply.
-Churn our Great Vasarian Brandy, good resources+cheap+patience to get a good schem == Good Brandy
-Crank out Full suits of Good Quality Ubese Armor. Again all it would take is patience.
You really think that the other crafters would go for that?
I could essentially pick good sellers from several different elite professions and if I did'nt mind blowing some resources could eventually arrive at a useable schematic. Which in this case would be no problem at all.
I think some other solution should be found, baring that I think its actually fine the way it is.
-Gooney
Message Edited by Gooney on 01-28-2005 01:34 PM
mfg177
Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:06 am
#20
Well, I may be wrong, but my vision is that the Experimentation points (any way you like) should be spread to all (ar nearly all) elite-profession boxes, similar to Artisan tree. So, that advancing in any tree can give you better results, but the reson to fill all the boxes remains.
As a BE (a rather Service-profession for Cheffs, Tailors and CH) I really hate the grinding idea (and I never do practise crafting), but I also won't welcome easy way for Chefs and Tailors just to take 1 tree of BE for theif own needs...
I think, that having 4 experimentation points is quite enough to make saleable products for those, who understand the profession and marketing...
Numen
Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:34 am
#21
At the moment, the biggest incentive of getting Master in any crafting profession is the extra experimentation points. While I like having a lot more great successes or amazings, it still comes down to how much of a bonus those extra exp points are.
IMO, there must be a reason not to just get master, but to go even a little farther up the tree. Since most of the prereqs are the same for many of the crafting professions, I believe you will see a lot of dabblers with this.
For example, with 21 skill points I can train novice and 1 tier of a profession
A crafter could have the following
Weaponsmith - Melee Weapons
Armorsmith - PSGs
Chef - Ahrisa and Brandy
Architect - Harvestors
Master Swordsman
Some left over for some medic
Now I realize many of the Master crafting professions have certain schematics they can only get as a Master. The Powerhammer is one perfect example for above.
If the idea did happen, I would like to see one addition. To get a Tier 2 box, you must use a certain number of skill points in that profession. same with Tier 3 and Tier 4. It wouldn't need to be exactly like JTL in that you must get 2/2/2/2 before you can get 3/2/2/2. But I believe there are a lot of professions that 4/0/0/0 templates are possible and offer a lot more than the skill point use associated with them.
Another possible change instead. Give each schematic in each tier an experimentation value. Novice would be 10. They would get to use all 10 points on these items. If they trained 1/0/0/0, they would then get less points, but if they trained 1/0/0/1 they would be allowed to use all 10 points on those tier 1 schematics.
Formula could work like this
ES = Experimentation skill, skill that is increased with the experimentation line in any crafting profession
TS = Tier skill, A schematic in Tier 2 will have a value equal to the ES of a player with the tier 2 experimentation box.
# of Exp points = 10*(ES/TS)
At novice ES=10, Novice foods are also 10, so they get 10 points
At 1/0/0/0 ES=10, Tier 1 food would be 30 I believe. So they would get 3 points, Novice foods would still get 10 points
In most professions, there is just so little reason to get to master, or to get more than just tier 4 in one line. That wouldn't prevent people from getting 4/0/0/0 but there would be dimishing returns.
johnautry613
Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:41 am
#22
Guruweaver wrote:
Currently, Experimentation Points (EP) are calculated from the player's Experimentation Skill (ES) this way:
EP = ES / 10
EP must be an integer, rounded down.
So a novice has +10 ES, so they get EP = 10 /10 = 1 experimentation point.
I propose changing the formula to this:
EP = 10 + Abs( ( ES - 100) / 10 ) )
So a novice with +10 ES will get EP = 10 + Abs ( (100 - 10)/10) = 10
A Master with +20 from SEAs in their clothing (A "12 point master") would calculate this way:
EP = 10 + Abs ( (120 - 100)/10) = 10 + (20/10) = 10 + 2 = 12
I understand what you are trying to say, but the math is...off...so I am having trouble following.
So a novice with +10 ES will get EP = 10 + Abs ( (100 - 10)/10) = 10
Actually, this equals 19, not 10.
EP = 10 + Abs ( (120 - 100)/10) = 10 + (20/10) = 10 + 2 = 12
This equals 12 + 2 or 14.
I think what you are expressingyou meant to be (ResultExperimination) = (ESkill)+ (RandomValue)
Where (ResultExperimintaion) is the good, great, amazing and so on. ESkill is the new modifier you suggest, and the (RandomValue) is the system's random generation.
This would allow you the stated desire you had while allowiing the numbe of points or expiramentation to be an independant calculation and have no real bearing on the actual 'roll' on result.
Drashk
Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:26 am
#23
BeesKnees wrote:
Drashk wrote:
BeesKnees wrote:
My product isn't good enough for the DE. Bleh!)
OT -
What is the DE wanting you to make that requires Experimentation?
Experimentation on Artisan parts has ZERO impact on anything that a DE needs. If the DE in question doesn't take your word for it, point him my way and I will set him straight.
You mean that if I make a control unit and it comes out at -2 that it would work for a factory run and would be okay as a component in micro sensor suites and would satisfy the needs of the DE?
Quality does not matter at all for Droid Engineer required Artisan parts. A 0% Experimentation component will have the same benefit as a 100% Experimentation component. This includes EEMs, EGPs, Control Units, and Micro Sensors. You can use any junk resources to build these components for a Droid Engineer's requirements. BTW, you also do not need the optional component for the Micro Sensor either.
Take a look at the DE 101 guide, listed in my sig and sticked to the DE forums. Section 9 covers what needs experimenation and what doesn't need it, for a DE.
Hope that helps.
Meplorium
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:03 am
#24
The electronic exp quality is used in crafting stations for sure and I believe for PSG as well.
Drashk
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:29 am
#25
For Architect Crafting Stations and Weaponsmith PSGs, quality does matter; however I was talking about Droid Engineer requirements. I've spent countless hours testing out the quality of Artisan components in Droid Engineer crafted goods and have yet to find any proof that a well crafted Artisan part has any effect over a junked peice.
Meplorium wrote:
The electronic exp quality is used in crafting stations for sure and I believe for PSG as well.
Corran950
Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:54 pm
#26
I would /sign up for this in a instant. As a DE on the way to master this would be great. I am sorry to say i have grinded my way up to 1/0/0/4 before i started crafting for fun.
- Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3