Artisan Archive
Thread: Certing Harvesters will Encourage Cross-Server Lot Trades
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HalasterTheBlack
Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:53 am
#1
Buried this in a thread, figured I'd bring it out on its own so it can receive its proper flames and one-star ratings.
OK, say we do implement certs. The most popular schemes and compromises have heavies going to Master Artisans and to every Novice Elite that needs to use resources including Doctors, Smugglers, et. al.
Let's explore what that's going to do.
Elite Crafters
They'll get harvester certs. However, elite crafters for the most part require factories, vendors,and storage, so they're using a good portion of their lots for those things. Some Master Elites require more factories to be effective (Armorsmith). Some Master Elites require more storage (Weaponsmith, Chef). But the simple truth holds: they don't have a huge surplus of lots with which to mine. To use my Master WS as an example, I can free up 2-3 lots for harvesters. That won't be sufficient to mine for my own needs.
So what certs have done to me is... well... nothing, I'm not mining now and I can't mine with certs.
Non-Artisans
Here you've got the realm of folks who are mining now but don't have any of the skills that are required to mine in the future. They are in the game to be dancers or combatants or whatever. They don't want to use the SP on Artisan to get to mining. It would be detrimental to their goals for their character.
They will simply stop mining.
Cross-Server Lot Traders
These folks make characters, meet somewhere, and drop 10 heavy rigs for each other. They are already investing the cost of those10 rigs and some ingame time to create and move a new character to do this. On Naritus, that's about 1.5 million credits and say 30 minutes ingame.
Now say they have to get to Novice Architect to plant a heavy harvester. The cost just increased by the number of resources to grind your way to Novice Architect (be conservative and say around 50k), plus the time it takes to grind to it (about 30-45 minutes). 50k is insignificant when you're talking about a 1.5 million credit investment. Another 30 minutes is also insignificant to these folks.
But wait, say you putharvester certsonly in the Survey Line like the hard-liners want. Then these folks can macro for a couple hours and then over night and have Survey IV - heavy harvesters. Lower financial commitment,and less at-the-keys time. Still not a deterrent.
In Conclusion
Artisans - those who actually produce goods ingame - won't be mining because they don't have the lots to do it. People who play non-artisans on the server and actually participate in the server's economy won't be mining because they won't sacrifice the SP to get the certs.
But cross-server lot traders, THEY will be going stronger than ever. Because the competition they used to have for high-quality resources will be GONE (those un-certed combatants dropped out).
Is that what we want?
ObiQuixote
Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:08 am
#2
Are you saying that the number of people willing to master artisan on multiple servers to cross server trade is greater then the number of people who would cross server trade without having to master artisan?
Splutty
Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:25 am
#3
ObiQuixote wrote:
Are you saying that the number of people willing to master artisan on multiple servers to cross server trade is greater then the number of people who would cross server trade without having to master artisan?
Read the text again. It's *not* about mastering artisan, it's about getting to novice architect, which is a whole lot less work (novice artisan, one tree in artisan itself, then novice architect)
I think the original poster has some very good points here. Since the eventual rewards of cross-server lot trades extend for however long you want, the initial investment of time and money (and the hour to hour-and-a-half mark mentioned is fairly correct) is worth it in any case.
Mad.
ObiQuixote
Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:41 am
#4
What ever the barrier is, I would still contend that there will be less people, not more, willing to do it with the barrier. And if it only take 30 minutes to an hour to get certs that’s 3 to 10 hours of work to get the certs for 5 to 10 servers.
I really don’t see certs as a solution to X server trading. At best it would probably be wash. Just a hard cap on the number of buildings you can have admin rights on will stop the worst cases of cross server trading.
I really don’t see certs as a solution to X server trading. At best it would probably be wash. Just a hard cap on the number of buildings you can have admin rights on will stop the worst cases of cross server trading.
HalasterTheBlack
Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:06 pm
#5
Bianca, I like that thought. Well worth exploring.
The point was NOT that more or less people would cross-server lot trade.
The point was that under certs, ONLY x-server is viable. On-server lot rentals would be dead. Artisans don't mine because they don't have the lots free to do so (or they'd not be buying from on-server miners now; they'd be mining their own).
Certs don'tsolve the problem;they exacerbate it.
BiancaMinola
Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:49 am
#6
I do not think that Harvester certification will discourage cross server lot trading either.
People do what they are rewarded for, IRL and in games.
The game mechanics need to be tweaked to take the 'value' out of (arguable) exploits like this.
I contend that the solution to cross server lot trading is an in game mechanic to 'rent' lots from other players in game. If a rented lot is more convienent than the current method of meeting up with player X on server Y to place harvesters once a week - the vast majority of people will use lot rentals.
Bianca Minola
Gavvot
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:28 am
#7
ObiQuixote wrote:
Are you saying that the number of people willing to master artisan on multiple servers to cross server trade is greater then the number of people who would cross server trade without having to master artisan?
If mastering Artisan is the only way to put harvesters, Yes.
I don't do cross server trade.
I don't have enough lots to harvest what I need.
If Cert is the only way, then yes, I will cross server trade.
I won't really have any other option.
Fneegan
Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:38 am
#8
Combat cross-server/static lots by:
+ Making harvesterssingle owner only - no others can be added.
+ Give Harvesters/Factories a MAX of 5 days usethen they MUSTbe redeeded and repaired with - "Harvester-Factory Repair" module
+ If harvesters/Factories are not redeed after the 5 day period- it stops working until redeeded and repaired and gets hit with a 25% decay each and every week.
If you redeed - it decayed rateappears on the deed as condition 100/100, 75/100, 50/100 and 25/100.
Totally decayed harvesters/factoriesget destroyed
joined42904
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:18 pm
#9
Why did you guys go and one-star Fneegan?
Removing admin rights is more important than certification. These posts prove that.
Here's my proposal:
Total Elimination of Admin on all Harvesters...you want to mine you do everything with that lot.
Harvester Certification beyond personals linked to Survey Line or a new miner profession
Harvester Lots (with a cap) linked to Master artisan and every elite profession that crafts limited to harvester use...yes these lots include doctor and combat medic but they just get extra personals if they don't put points in survey (or miner if implemented)...of course using a lot of BER 4 personals might just meet most of their needs.
Limit total lots per account to 24 total in additon to 10 per server not counting extra harvester lots that are linked to skill set. Only harvester lots linked to skill set may be used for placing harvesters.
AND
Limit the number of structures anyone can have admin rights on to 4 factories and 3 homes or other structures such as guildhalls or houses.
Anyone think this wouldn't be fair?
HalasterTheBlack
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:47 pm
#10
Fneegan wrote:
Combat cross-server/static lots by:
+ Making harvesterssingle owner only - no others can be added.
+ Give Harvesters/Factories a MAX of 5 days usethen they MUSTbe redeeded and repaired with - "Harvester-Factory Repair" module
Have you ever actually mined? How about at least making them last a whole spawn, which for mineral, fusion, chem, and gas is 10 days and for flora and water is ~15?
+ If harvesters/Factories are not redeed after the 5 day period- it stops working until redeeded and repaired and gets hit with a 25% decay each and every week.
If you redeed - it decayed rateappears on the deed as condition 100/100, 75/100, 50/100 and 25/100.
Totally decayed harvesters/factoriesget destroyed
Good for architects. Bad for miners. Decay is OK, but decay to death on 4 uses is over-kill. Are you an architect?Decay to death after 12 "draws" (roughly one calendar quarter) might be better.
HalasterTheBlack
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:52 pm
#11
joined42904 wrote:
Why did you guys go and one-star Fneegan?
Removing admin rights is more important than certification. These posts prove that.
Here's my proposal:
Total Elimination of Admin on all Harvesters...you want to mine you do everything with that lot.
That's fine... as an alternative to certs. Not WITH certs.
Harvester Certification beyond personals linked to Survey Line or a new miner profession
This screws up the economy beyond belief.
Harvester Lots (with a cap) linked to Master artisan and every elite profession that crafts limited to harvester use...yes these lots include doctor and combat medic but they just get extra personals if they don't put points in survey (or miner if implemented)...of course using a lot of BER 4 personals might just meet most of their needs.
Artisans are NOT miners. They are crafters. Just because they have the skills to FIND the materials doens't necessarily mean they DESERVE the right to be the sole competent miners of those materials. Besides, don't you craft or know any crafters? Talk to them! CRAFTERS DO NOT HAVE LOTS FREE TO MINE!!!
Oh, wait. You're talking extra lots. So now I have to be a miner *and* a weaponsmith? Bah. I prefer to buy my resources from competent miners who, under this resource "glut" you claim exists, are charging 10x cost or more for current spawns. Doesn't seem very gluttish to me...
Limit total lots per account to 24 total in additon to 10 per server not counting extra harvester lots that are linked to skill set. Only harvester lots linked to skill set may be used for placing harvesters.
Hinders those who want to play multiple toons but don't want to or can't afford to pay for multiple accounts.
AND
Limit the number of structures anyone can have admin rights on to 4 factories and 3 homes or other structures such as guildhalls or houses.
Anyone think this wouldn't be fair?
Yes. Unfair. And stupid. Make crafters spend their time mining rather than producing good stuff. Me, I'd rather have my armorsmiths (Ronne, Kanela, Ugala on Naritus) focus on making awesome armor, not figuring out where to drop their miners and then managing them.
Besides, it's an attempt at solving a problem that doesn't exist.
Veers_Intrepid
Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:15 am
#12
Fneegan wrote:
Combat cross-server/static lots by:
+ Making harvesterssingle owner only - no others can be added.
good point
+ Give Harvesters/Factories a MAX of 5 days usethen they MUSTbe redeeded and repaired with - "Harvester-Factory Repair" moduleall in all, combined with only one person admin right, it could solve the x-server lot trades.
dont like this and 5 days would be to less also
+ If harvesters/Factories are not redeed after the 5 day period- it stops working until redeeded and repaired and gets hit with a 25% decay each and every week.
If you redeed - it decayed rateappears on the deed as condition 100/100, 75/100, 50/100 and 25/100.
decay sure would help us architects, but it should notbe such fast. and IF hopefully some day the marketvalues of architect products would go to a comparable lvl on par with other crafter professions (cpu wise) then it would be also to expensive to replace every 4 weeks the harvesters. but like 50 times redeed would be maybe not bad idea. (but wont effect stationary harvesters tho)
Totally decayed harvesters/factoriesget destroyed
ask a Dev 
Fneegan
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:30 am
#13
Actually, yes HalasterTheBlack, I am a miner and have been forquite some time and I don't plan on stopping.
To have them last a whole spawn is relative as that woulddepend on when you got in on the spawn in the first place.
It doesn't have to be 5 days,it could be 7 days, but certainly not 10 days.
We're talking about combating staticand cross-server lots. Using a 5 or 7 days period, would make harvesters that aretotally unattended/static lots TOTALLY stop harvesting after 5 (or 7 days) and get totally destroyed in 20 or 28 days (at 25% decay per week) if not repaired.10 days would only extendthe periodlonger (to 6 weeks).
You missedthe point - I didn't say they ALLdecay to death -> they only decay to death only if you DON'T REDEED them and repair them.If you don't repair them and leave them there, then they take a25%per week decay. Redeeding them you can repair them back 100%.
You place your harvester - 5 (or 7) days later it STOPS and remains stopped until you:
a. Redeed it and Repair it (cost 1 repair module) - you repair it - it's back to 100%
If you chose not to redeed it, it stops. If you leave it stopped there without repair, thenittakes a 25% decay each and every week (cost1 additional repair modules every week)
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