Artisan Archive
Thread: New Powerups on TC-5 *listing and test results*
Ewach
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:52 am
#79
I made Master Artisan on TC last night so I could do some more powerup testing.
The conductivity requirement has to go.
I used a chemical with OQ 872 and an Aluminum with OQ over 900 and conductivity around 532 (non weighted average was mid 700s, IIRC)
Anwyay, because of the chem not having a conductivity stat, the first line of experimentation (efficiency I believe) I could only experiment up to about 37%, the second line of experimentation to 66% (both maxed out for resources used).
That produced a High Powered Scope with a +20% damage modifier (positive attribute)and a +16% speed modifier (negative attribute).
I put the scope on a E11 Carbine. The net result was that DPS was LOWERED from 52.4 to 51.9
So for the benefit of having their weapon decay faster, the user gets to do less damage over time. Yea - these will sell good!
SkunkDuster
Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:17 pm
#82
While I agree that conductivity and PE requirements should be removed, I'm curious if your numbers weren't thrown off by a lack of PE on any of the resources. Unless they changed the underlying crafting formula, it will just ignore a non-stat (COND in Chemical) and base the entire percentage on the COND of the other resource(s). However, if you used, say, fiberplast, then neither of your resources would have a stat for PE. In this case, it treats it as a big fat goose egg. With PE counting for 66% of the efficiency, that'll hit hard. What also doesn't make sense is that you said you were severely limited on Effectiveness, but were able to experiment Effiency up to 66%. Is it possible that you got the two numbers reversed? If not, than something has really changed in the crafting forumla.
Exp Effectiveness - (positive effect)
Conductivity 66%
Overall Quality 33%
Exp Efficiency - (negative effect)
Overall Quality 33%
Potential Energy 66%
OQ CO PE
Chem 872 --- ---
Alum 910 532 ---
WgtAvg 894.8 532 0
Experimental Percentages:
Effect 64.64 (OQ*.33)+(COND*.66)
Effic 29.53 (OQ*.33)+(PE*.66)
Edit: I just saw a thread in the Chef forum where a reference was made to non-stat items counting as zero now instead of being ignored. Nice
Exp Effectiveness - (positive effect)
Conductivity 66%
Overall Quality 33%
Exp Efficiency - (negative effect)
Overall Quality 33%
Potential Energy 66%
OQ CO PE
Chem 872 --- ---
Alum 910 532 ---
WgtAvg 894.8 532 0
Experimental Percentages:
Effect 64.64 (OQ*.33)+(COND*.66)
Effic 29.53 (OQ*.33)+(PE*.66)
Edit: I just saw a thread in the Chef forum where a reference was made to non-stat items counting as zero now instead of being ignored. Nice
Message Edited by SkunkDuster on 04-14-2005 09:50 PM
Ewach
Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:52 pm
#83
SkunkDuster wrote:
What also doesn't make sense is that you said you were severely limited on Effectiveness, but were able to experiment Effiency up to 66%. Is it possible that you got the two numbers reversed? If not, than something has really changed in the crafting forumla.
I'm sorry - you are correct in your assumption. I was posting from memory and may have mixed something up. I also do not recall what the PE was as, honestly, I forgot they added that stat as well. I was only thinking in terms of OQ and Conductivity.
I guess I'm still a little "fury blinded" over all my stockpiles of high OQ resources collected and bought over the last two years that won't work for powerups any more.
SkunkDuster
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:26 am
#84
PE is a big part of the problem. Even bigger if non-stats are considered zero (as opposed to null) in the crafting formula. The reason is that the only minerals that have a stat for PE are Solid Petrochemical and Radioactive. For chemical, the only one is Liquid Petrochemical. The other three (fiberplast, polymer, and lubricating oil) don't have a stat for PE. If the formula ignores non-stats, you still need to have Radioactive, Solid Petro, or Liquid Petro somewhere in the mix. If it counts non-stats as zero, then those three ingredients are your only realistic choices if you want to make decent powerups.
Joe Newbie Wannabe Crafter isn't going to know these things. He is going to see "Mineral" and "Chemical" and get frustrated because his powerups are complete crap and he doesn't understand he's getting docked hard by not using "Radioactive" and "Liquid Petrochem". It all seems misleading and unnecessarily overcomplicated to me.
Joe Newbie Wannabe Crafter isn't going to know these things. He is going to see "Mineral" and "Chemical" and get frustrated because his powerups are complete crap and he doesn't understand he's getting docked hard by not using "Radioactive" and "Liquid Petrochem". It all seems misleading and unnecessarily overcomplicated to me.
Animi
Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:43 am
#85
StumanKadir wrote:
Then what exactly is the point in having an item such as a powerup?
There really isn't one. The CU has pretty much made all craftable goods, aside from weapons, useless. As the CU currently stands, the following items are no longer needed to play the game:
- The "medical enhancement" craftables (useless)
- Armor (the level system pretty much guarantees that anything below your level will not hurt you and anything above will kill you instantly, regardless of whether you have armor)
- Powerups (useless)
- Droids (useless, except for BH droids)
- Enhanced weapons (they are only marginally better than stock, thus not worth the trouble/price)
- Foods (most are useless with the HAM revamp)
The only things people need to be effective at combat, whether it's PvP or PvE, are stock weapons and stim packs. Vehicles will still sell well (say that 10 times fast) and the architect market isn't really changing, but other crafting professions have been seriously nerfed by the lack of any incentive to purchase crafted products under the CU.
Lycantha
Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:48 am
#86
Animi wrote:
StumanKadir wrote:
Then what exactly is the point in having an item such as a powerup?There really isn't one. The CU has pretty much made all craftable goods, aside from weapons, useless. As the CU currently stands, the following items are no longer needed to play the game:
- The "medical enhancement" craftables (useless)
- Armor (the level system pretty much guarantees that anything below your level will not hurt you and anything above will kill you instantly, regardless of whether you have armor)
- Powerups (useless)
- Droids (useless, except for BH droids)
- Enhanced weapons (they are only marginally better than stock, thus not worth the trouble/price)
- Foods (most are useless with the HAM revamp)
The only things people need to be effective at combat, whether it's PvP or PvE, are stock weapons and stim packs. Vehicles will still sell well (say that 10 times fast) and the architect market isn't really changing, but other crafting professions have been seriously nerfed by the lack of any incentive to purchase crafted products under the CU.
Agree 100%. Suggest Master Artisan title be changed to Bike Maker and Stuff.
Re Conductivity and OQ on a powerup. Not good, as this puts the Artisan in direct competition to the Ranged Weapons builder for quality resources. Hi Cond/OQ metals are the MOST expensive on my server.. hardly the resource you want to be paying for to drop in a cheap, marginally effective disposable item.
Bermag
Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:45 am
#87
Since the weapon cap (which is very bad) will be 15-20% higher than a nomal crafted weapons even a small dps increase by using a powerup will be useful.
I think some changes are needed for powerups:
- Increase the number of uses. Make it 500 and increase resource cost 5x
- Change the attributes needed. if it is CD/OQ + OQ/PE you would have to use metal for mineral and only have the choice of using liquid petro for chemical. Anything else will give you bad stats (at least one resource need to have CD another PE). There are no resources which have CD+PE. Best would be to leave it at 100% OQ since that is what most people have collected today. Since we have 2 lines to experiment it will still be hard to maximize both stats.
seshinn
Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:45 am
#88
from what I have read here , I am very disappointed in the Powerup changes..
I went from about 1-1.5 mil a week in sales to about 150k a week since the testing of the CUStarted
I have been making powerups for almost a year now.. I have a vendor with over 500 Crates of powerups
It seems to me this CU is a way to punish the veteran players that have collected the best of the best of the best..
When a system change of this magnitude punishes a veteran player in such a drastic way as this..it is completly uncalled for and wrong..
Whether it be a WS, AS, or Artisan ...
I can just say this in response to the CU and Crafting changes..I don't like it at all..
I know this is suppose to be a powerups testing thread, and I apologioze for my ranting here...but since the DEVs seem to read this thread..and post here..
That ismy 2 credits
Amatron
Sat May 07, 2005 8:14 pm
#89
All good information, some things are debatable, the question I have is, is it worth making power ups? The finalmarginal improvements are practically negligible because if one statistic improves, the cost goes up on another. I made a few Powerups for my Pistols and then called it quits. As an example a Scope gave me +22 Focus Bonus points but changed the Attack speed from 1.48 seconds to 1.69 seconds. Another was aMuzzle that increased the Wound Chance from 13.38% to 16.2% but the Attack Cost went from 84 to 96.
I'm not a Mathematician but I wonder if anyone can figure out the final ( if any ), improvement. I'd lik to see something like "and this improves your chances of survival by 5%", or "you have a 20% better chance of killing your enemy". Isn't that the hard core final information we're all after?
I am impressed with all the work that is going into this topic but for now, I'll save my resources and check back later.
jason67
Tue May 10, 2005 11:06 am
#90
I've posted on several different threads my results and what it takes to truely make worthwhile pups (yes they do exist). So far I have only seen one other person really getting into it andworking with the system. The first pointer I will mention is that in order to get good results on the pups you must have included resources with all3 stats oq/cd and oq/pe. In this case it appears that copper and liquid petro are the best chioces. If for any reason you leave out one of those stats (ie using radioactives as the mineral instead leaves out the CD) then that stat will count as a zero significantly hurting your final product.
Next you need to now treat artisan as you do any other profession, expect to spend money on exp tapes in order to get the best products (note that humans also get a health bonus to exp as well giving them a total possible of 14pts).
On my crafting character I'm very serious about what I do when I craft. I always use a full exp suit, I have the best resources possible (or darn close) and I craft until I get amazing success before using a schematic. I have gotten some of the following results...
Tactical Grip
-27.05% speed / -11 accuracy
-18.89% speed / -0 accuracy
Reinforced Stocks
-27.05% SAC / -7accuracy
-27.36% SAC / -6accuracy
-27.05% SAC / -5accuracy
-22.89% SAC / -2accuracy
-27.36% SAC / -6accuracy
-27.05% SAC / -5accuracy
-22.89% SAC / -2accuracy
High Power Barrel
+27.67% damage / +7.86% speed
+27.67% damage / +6.13% speed
+27.05% damage / +5.99% speed
+21.02% damage / +1.31% speed
+27.67% damage / +6.13% speed
+27.05% damage / +5.99% speed
+21.02% damage / +1.31% speed
This is a list of my current set of schematics based on various qualities and ways of experimenting (ie how many points at a time and how many amazings). as you can see there is almost always a cost associated with using a pup but in most of my examples it is a very minor cost, making the pups very worthwhile. using the tactical grips I have easily added over 100 points to the base DPS of current weapons (standard high end weapons not CDEF's). I find that customers currently are focused on two main pups at the moment, those are the tactical grips for added DPS, and the reinforced stocks for lower SAC. The high power barrel doesn't have quite the reputation yet due to it's reduced DPS to it's counterpart in the tactical grips, most people more or less ignore the accuracy especially where it's so minor a cost in my pups.
I think the type of stats I have achieved are what the developement team had in mind, and why it was balanced the way it was. Clearly you can see with the above stats that the pups are worthwhile but still have a minor cost involed. The dillema the devs have is that if they make it possible for normal everyday 10pt crafters to make pups with these kind of stats, what happens when someone goes all out like I did above and starts making the pups. The answer is simple, they then become overpowering. If you assume for the moment that normal crafters were getting roughly the same damage as I was on my high power barrels (roughly 27% damage increase) and on top of that they were 10-15 pts higher on the secondary stats than I am. So given that my stats are say roughly +7 to speed, if you remove an additional 15pts from that you are now looking at -8 to speed as well as the 27% damage increase. It would just be too much and would destroy the relative balance that the above pups have.
I agree that a master artisan should be able to make relatively useful items even without the extra experimentation I used, and currently pups made by a normal master are worthless. I think there is a little wiggle room for them to try and reduce the penalties a little so that Master artisans would at least be useful but if they make the adjustments to large then we'll start seeing a bunch of overpowered pups in the system. It may simply be better to focus on a different aspect of the artisan profession for now until the devs can establish that finite balance for the standard master artisans vs the fully modded human masters.
jason67
Tue May 10, 2005 11:39 am
#91
Helios_SOE wrote:
I'd like to hear some of your opinions/suggestions on the resources used for the powerups.
I don't think the solution to resolve this is really that complicated. I had a long PM ready to send off to you but got severely restricted on characters lol (probably good for you since you get so many PM's). Anyways I see the balance that the devs were trying to reach and I think they still have some room to adjust stats slightly to make pups worthwhile for a standard crafter without making them overpowered for people like me who have maxed out suits and FS crafting skills and are human etc...
I think if we simply reduced the negative impact from the start by a measly 3 to 5 points (not a huge change here), that would allow standard master artisans to craft powerups that actually have positive bonuses to them instead of the ones now where it actually makes the weapons worse. I think that minor change can help them make worthwhile powerups without giving people like me the ability to make severely overpowering powerups. I would also suggest that if it has not already been established that you cap the negative stat at zero making it impossible to get powerups with benefits on both stats (though still possible to get them with no penalties).
I have posted the stats I was able to achieveabove in this post and on any other powerup posts that I have seen. This change would allow me to get much closer to the no penalty mark but would not be severely overpowering in my opinion especially if the zero limit is initiated.
Message Edited by jason67 on 05-10-2005 11:40 AM