Artisan Archive
Thread: New Powerups on TC-5 *listing and test results*
Egna_Dragonn
Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:11 pm
#66
Ranged Powerup Test Results from 4/6/05:
All Ranged tests conducted with the weapon certed at the appropriate Marksman 2, Marksman4, and Novice Elite box for the profession line in question. All powerups come from crated factory runs with 3 great experimentation rolls to Efficiency and 4 great experimentation rolls to Quality.
Powerup 1: Tactical Grip (-18 Accuracy -15.23% Speed)
Powerup 2: Tactical Scope (+16 Accuracy +9.5% Speed)
Powerup 3: High Power Barrel (+16.27% Damage +10.12% Speed)
DLT20 - w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.5 - 2.1 - 2.7 - 2.8
Damage: 45-89 - x -x - 52-96
Accuracy Mod:0 - -18 - +16 - x
Base DPS: 31.6 - 24.5 - 26.9
Special Cost: 102
SG82 - w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.5 - 2.1 - 2.7 - 2.8
Damage: 45-89 - x -x - 102-190
Accuracy Mod:0 - -18 - +16 - x
Base DPS: 52.8 - 62.3 - 48.2 -53.0
Special Cost: 102
Spraystick -w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.5 - 2.1 - 2.7 - 2.8
Damage: 119-238(93) - x -x - 138-257(93)
Accuracy Mod:0 - -18 - +16 - x
Base Total DPS:108.4 - 127.9 -99.0 - 105.3
Special Cost: 102
DH17 - w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.2 - 1.9 - 2.5 - 2.5
Damage: 39-79 - x - x - 45-85
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS: 26.2 - 30.9 - 23.9 - 26.2
Cost: 92
E11 Carbine- w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.2 - 1.9 - 2.5 - 2.5
Damage: 79-157 - x - x - 91-169
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS:52.4 -61.9 -47.9 -52.5
Cost: 92
EE3- w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2.2 - 1.9 - 2.5 - 2.5
Damage: 148-297 - x - x - 172-321
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS:98.7 -116.4 -90.1 - 99.3
Cost: 92
D18 - w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2 - 1.7 - 2.2 -2.2
Damage:34-68 - x - x - 39-73
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS:25.5 -30.1 -23.3 - 25.4
Cost: 82
Scout Blaster- w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2 - 1.7 - 2.2 -2.2
Damage:70-140 - x - x - 81-151
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS:52.5 -61.9 -47.9 - 52.7
Cost: 82
Striker Pistol- w/ PUP1 - w/ PUP2 - w/ PUP3
Speed: 2 - 1.7 - 2.2 -2.2
Damage:131-263 - x - x - 152-284
Accuracy Mod: 0 - -18 - +16 - 0
Base DPS:98.5 -116.2 -90.0 - 99.0
Cost: 82
My thoughts on these numbers:
- Accuracy Mod does not affect the Base DPS calculation, this may be intentional or a bug
- You can actually add a powerup that will make your weapon worse for the application you are using it for. This is not a bad thing, it simply means that you need to change your mindset surrounding powerup sales. They will no longer be a simple commodity that can be easily sold to and understood by every combat player. In order to be sucessful at selling powerups you will need to become proficient at determining what your customer actually wants to use the PUP's for, and be able to take the time to explain to a customer how the various products work. This is not impossible, or necessarily bad, it simply means you will be interacting more with your customers, or supplying the bulk order to a merchant that is willing to put that kind of time in with the customers (Ask a Droid Engineer if you can't picture how this works). In essence you may be taking a lot more custom orders for runs of powerups rather than stocking crates of 5 different types on your vendor.
- Even if you're unwilling to accept the argument that combat players will need to equip themselves with combat tatics in mind, and thus you see a speed for damage tradeoff as worthless, the numbers above prove that with the correct experimentation and resources, even a speed/damage tradeoff powerup can give you a decent Base DPS boost over the life of the powerup. As most statistics are modified on a percentage basis, as you deal with higher level certed elite weapons, a Base DPS increase of 1-2% will still be relatively valuable, especially for those who don't need to worry about decay, for whatever reason.
-Egna Dragonn, wanderer and Droid Engineer based out of Kraytia, Tatooine (Chilastra)
Mizraal
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:32 am
#67
I haven't been able to check out test center (I'm on dial up atm). Are we really losing the ability to make bone armour and most weapons, or is it what we can make won't be worth anything?
As far as the power ups go I can understand adjusting them, but I feel that OQ should be the primary stat (>66%) and that the ratio of penalty/benefit should be more than 1:1, 1:1.25 at the very least. As someone above mentioned the add in componentsforshipwright are close to 1:1 and they are almost worthless. P-Ups are are fairly basic and important part of MA's and it'd be nice if they were still viable after the CU.
As for types of resources I would avoid named resources as the primary components but use resources applicable to the type of powerup as the minor components. The minorcomponents could be named, but agian I wouldn't require the major component to be named; doing so would cripple those who spent a great deal of time and energy on their stores and their buisness.
Message Edited by Mizraal on 04-07-2005 02:44 PM
LonelyGhost
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:37 am
#68
Overall Quality should be weighted for 75% on all powerups. The 25% remaining could be as follows...
Some of them are hard to justify ANY second stat, like Wounds, or Accuracy. Particularly the melee pu's as they don not all use energy in their use. Butif you *have* to have a second stat, these might work. By spreading out the stats, it becomes possible for some crafters to specialize in certain powerups, but the current stock of high OQ minerals people have collected will not be wasted.
R A N G E D
Tuning Coupler > Elemental only, +Elemental -Standard damages PE
Tactical Scope > +Accuracy -Speed CD
Tactical Grip > +Speed -Accuracy CD
Reinforced Stock> -Action -Accuracy DR
High Power Barrel > +Damage -Speed CD
Burst Focusing Muzzle > +Wounds +Action PE (Wounds really should be removed as a powerup type....)
M E L E E
Element Dispersal Tuning Kit > Elemental only, +Elemental -Standard damages PE
Hilt Reinforcement Kit > -Action -Accuracy DR
Inertial FLuctuator Kit > +Damage -Speed SR
Surface Serration Kit > +Wounds +Action UT (again, Wounds is a fairly useless powerup)
Tactical Grip Kit > +Speed -Accuracy SR
Weight-Balancing Kit > +Accuracy -Speed UT
G R E N A D E
Explosives Kit > DOES NOTHING
Wiring Kit > DOES NOTHING
Wiring Kit > DOES NOTHING
Sineya
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:41 am
#69
Helios_SOE wrote:
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking).
We have tested it extensively, over many years, in many games, I could point to threads but they're not in SWG related forums but, the DPS mechanism is the same in most mmorpgs (DAoC, EQ,etc) since they're all inspired from P&P RPG ancestors mechanisms.
Despite common belief (and apparently the devs share that belief)fast butlow damage is NOTbetter thanslow but highdamageif you tend to miss a lot.With a high damage low speed, when you do hit, you hit for more and that makes up.
For example :
Weapon A : Speed 1 Damage 1 (DPS 1)
Weapon B : Speed5 Damage 5 (DPS 1)
Let's take a second by second analysis, with a 60% hit rate
Time - Damage Per Hit - Total Damage
01s - 1 - 015 - 5
02s -1 - 020 - 5
03s - 1 - 030 - 5
04s - 0 - 030 - 5
05s - 1 - 040 - 5
06s - 0 - 045 - 10
07s - 1 - 050 - 10
08s- 0 - 050 - 10
09s- 1 - 060 - 10
10s - 0 - 060 - 10
11s - 1 - 075 - 15
12s -1 - 080 - 15
13s - 1 - 090 - 15
14s - 0 - 090 - 15
15s - 1 - 100 - 15
16s - 0 - 100 - 15
17s - 1 - 110 - 15
18s- 0 - 110 - 15
19s- 1 - 120 - 15
20s - 0 - 120 - 15
and so on till
41s - 1 - 255 - 30
42s -1 - 260 - 30
43s - 1 - 270 - 30
44s -0 - 270 - 30
45s - 1 - 280 - 30
46s -0 - 280 - 30
47s - 1 - 290 - 30
48s -0 - 290 - 30
49s - 1 - 300 - 30
50s -0 - 300 - 30
There are circumstances though when that isn't true, or that even though it's true one type (faster lower orslower higher)of damage is better. For example when the game uses a flawed combat formula such as the one SWG has been using until CU with apoint at which all skillsare fired every second despite other paramaters.
Or when you need to deal damage very quickly, say in the first 15 seconds, odds become true over a certain period time, for example you can miss 3 times in a row even with a 90% precision (it is mathematically possible to miss 10 times in a row then hit 90 times in a row thus achieving that 90%), well in cirumstances where you can not afford not doing damage in the first seconds (because you're either vulnerable or need to apply an effect fast) a faster weapon is better.
Over time, higher damage or lower speed results in the same. Other parameters help choosing between the two, but for raw damage it's the same. From my experience, and I do agree with you here, in most circumstances faster is better, no matter how often you miss, because in most games special attacks apply a special effect independant of the damage but directly dependent to how often you miss (a hit for 1 damage or for 100 can result in the same KD, and if sticking the KD quickly is important to your survival). The rare occasions where higher "front loaded" damage is better are when many people camp the same mob spawn and you want to deal the most damage within the first seconds to get looting rights or when in PvP you're in a team assisting each others on one same targetand 1 hit from each team member at the same time on that same target will result in its instant death (this is especially true in DAoC's RvR but applies exactly the same way to SWG).
Sineya
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:43 am
#70
Anyways,
Helios_SOE wrote:
In tandem with that effort, we are also trying to make sure that you don't absolutely need a slice or powerup (or both) to use your weapon effectively. Not to say that these things won't give you an overall edge in combat (because they should), but they can't be "make-or-break" portions of the weapon. This is why you won't see a "free" 30% dmg increase on a powerup any more.
While this may look good on the paper, that's exactly the kind of things that don't turn as intented in game : if players aren't sure to get a "free" increase, they won't be bothered to travel to a vendor, buy crates, remove them from the crate, apply them to their weapon everytime it depletes.
That "trade-off" theory is great for skills, things that are always at your disposal (and that EQ2 uses extensivly, since you are copying their combat copy at least the successful things) such as a skill that lowers offense but increases defense ; not for a bought limited use item that's a hassle to use. Toggle skills that trade one thing for another are great design ideas because they truly add depth and tactics to combat, good players will know in which circumstances to use them and when not to, while bad players will have them always on and find themselves in situations where they're actually making it worst for them because they toggled a skill that trades defense for offense and they're attacked by many creatures at once.
Powerups HAVE to be "free" bonus or they won't be wanted again. Remember when Vehicle costumization kits weren't used at all because they had too few uses ? Well it's about the same reasoning here plus here you're giving a disadvantage. You corrected that issue in the past, keep it that way anddon't make the same mistake 
Animi
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:52 am
#71
Star_Ranger wrote:
...I really like having more variety, soI'd suggest merely bumping up the effect OQ has to 66% at least; perhaps even 75%. I, also, like the idea of making the resources specific to the type of power up made (allows some specialization based on resources available). ie:
Ranged powerups - OQ 66%, CD 33%
Melee powerups - OQ 66%, SR 33% (or UT 33%)
Grenades- OQ66%, PE 33%
I like this proposal.
The thing is, powerupsare a simple item in the SWG scheme of things. It is an artisan crafted item, so it seems to me there is no need to make each experimentation line require a different combination of resource stats.
The above proposal is a good one. It takes into account that people are going to be crafting these as part of a novice profession and a lot of people will "cut their teeth" on powerups when their learning how the crafting system works. Making two separate crafting lines each dependant on two different sets of resource stats, as things currently sit under the CU,will complicate the issue for new crafters.
So, go with something like the above-poster suggested and make those experimental %s apply to both crafting lines.
Also, I would increase theshots per PUP to 500 each and make them require 30 units of mineral and 20 units of chemical to craft. This maintains the same "units of resource/shot" that currently exists, but takes away the need to replace your PUP every 2 minutes or so.
Please consider making wound chance the negative side effect of the damage PUP.
SkunkDuster
Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:25 am
#72
Helios_SOE wrote:I'd like to hear some of your opinions/suggestions on the resources used for the powerups.
I prefer the way it is in Live with just one stat and two different general resource classes. Artisan is a nice introduction to the higher level crafting professions, so I think things should be quite straightforward and easy to understand. If you move towards chef or armorsmith level of complexity in the schematics and resource requirements, I could see it being very frustrating to somebody new to the SWG crafting system. SWG already has the most complicated crafting system of any MMORPG (that I know of), I don't see any good reason to complicate it further. I've never seen any complaints that the requirements for powerups, droid batteries, fishing poles, or vehicles as being "too simple".
If it isn't broken, and nobody is complaining, why change it?
jphillips1868
Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:59 am
#73
I really disagree with the desing of making powerups having tradeoff in one area to get a benefit in another. If the problem is that they are unbalancing, then making them give a smalller bonus, not this trade off nonsense. Please reconsider your design. You are making this item not usefull.
Redleg13
Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:45 am
#74
I am a smuggler and having read this post it appears that my chief skill in the game is going away. If I understand this post from a dev slicing will do only a little for the player who gets it. It now is going to be much more complex - so it cost me the slicer more time and effort for little if any value. (The power up discussion seems to be saying you can shoot fast and do little damage or shoot slow and do more damage but it all equals out in the end - could be a song.) So spice will be a little better but not much so why buy them - no one does now. Slice will provide little value so why do it at all. All weapons are to be equalized against level. Sound like we are becoming EQ in space. With the other changes this is not a community game but a group hunter killer game.
Bermag
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:02 pm
#75
Helios_SOE wrote:
I'd like to hear some of your opinions/suggestions on the resources used for the powerups.
I think it is best to stay away from CD+OQ. There are so many other stuff that use the same attributes. Good to find some use for other resources.
Maybe the best would be to keep 100% OQ though. Powerups is a good thing for new artisans (ie non-elite) to make. By making a resource using two attributes it will make it harder to find good resources.
Ewach
Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:18 pm
#76
Put me in the camp of being VERY disappointed that they are modifying which stats are important for existing schematics.
They can't continue to kick existing customers in the teeth like this and expect loyalty. The current poll - the one in which they ask whether we would recommend SWG to a friend - says it all.
A majority (56%) say they would NOT recommend it to a friend and only a quarter (27%) said they would.
SkunkDuster
Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:17 pm
#77
After putting more thought into it, I see another reason not to increase the complexity of the resource requirements. The only way to really compete in the high-level crafting arenas is either to be a 11-12 pointer with great resources, or a 10 pointer with excellent resources. These resources can take several months to collect, thereby really limiting your gameplay experience for that time.
Artisan is nice for the new and experienced player in that, within a few weeks, enough resources will spawn to make marketable powerups because the requirements are pretty generic (mineral, chemical) and there is only one stat that is required (OQ). If the current changes go live, then artisan will be just as difficult (and expensive) to compete in as chef/armorsmith/weaponsmith, yet have no craftable items that bring in comparable profits. It seems as it will just push the have's and the have-not's that much further apart.
I gave up chef because I hated the rat-race of SEA and resource collecting and dropped back to the more easygoing and enjoyable pace of artisan. I am already a 14 pointer with excellent resources and a nice bankroll so I'd have no problem staying afloat and being "the best" if these changes go live. My views aren't from the perspective of "oh noes, if this goes live, I'm screwed!". I'll be fine - it's the profession as a whole that will be screwed.
Please re-evaluate the resource requirements and experimentation lines. Thanks!
Artisan is nice for the new and experienced player in that, within a few weeks, enough resources will spawn to make marketable powerups because the requirements are pretty generic (mineral, chemical) and there is only one stat that is required (OQ). If the current changes go live, then artisan will be just as difficult (and expensive) to compete in as chef/armorsmith/weaponsmith, yet have no craftable items that bring in comparable profits. It seems as it will just push the have's and the have-not's that much further apart.
I gave up chef because I hated the rat-race of SEA and resource collecting and dropped back to the more easygoing and enjoyable pace of artisan. I am already a 14 pointer with excellent resources and a nice bankroll so I'd have no problem staying afloat and being "the best" if these changes go live. My views aren't from the perspective of "oh noes, if this goes live, I'm screwed!". I'll be fine - it's the profession as a whole that will be screwed.
Please re-evaluate the resource requirements and experimentation lines. Thanks!
SdeWndr
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:14 am
#78
OMG.. I just noticed this thread... I was really hopeing that only the Doctor portion of my alt's template was going to get nerfed.. not artisan too.
Unbelievable.