Artisan Archive

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Guruweaver wrote:

You have not yet seen what I suggesting. I would ask you and all others to please reserve judgement until after I have posted my proposal.

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I am always willing to read new ideas and suggestions with an open mind

The only judgment I have passed is inregard to thisissueas it has beenpresented by a minority of some very vocal Artisans

I can say that it would be a hard sell to me (and likely many others) if any suggestions that isput forth in the future:

• givesthe ability to control **any** element of the resource market to Artisans. This espeically includes any harvester cert system of mediums and heavies.

That kind of power is just not in the scope of any basic profession IMHO. I will nevertheless keep an open mind.I doubt howeverthat, no matter how someone would try to spin it,the vast majority of the player base will welcome any variation of the above.

I also highly doubt the DEVs or TH would be receptive to it either as any variation of the above boils down to nothing more then a mining class... Again, I point out such a class has been rejected by the DEVs time and time again.

Anyways, I look forward to seeing your ideas Guruweaver and I apologize if I put any words inyour mouth sir. I admit I only caught the tail end of this debate, so to speak.

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Sinist wrote:

As long as balance and integrity are brought to the system im not going to have to call everyone idiots and morons daily who argue with me for trying to make an argument for the good of the game.

Trolling a troller isnt wrong in my opinion and if im forced to read it i should be forced to make a not so pleasant rebuttal.

Anyways Guru I think you understand that I dont approve of you as the coorespondant. This thread maybe cleared up some of the disparities I seen with how you handle the forums and issues, and I now think you do a mediocre job instead of a very bad job. I will cancel my complaint to SOE that I have against you for the time being.

Regardless I dont think ill be around much longer in this community because the majority of the community is unconstructive, and they disagree with ideas that will balance the game just because they appear to take something away from them and they dont want to sacrifice something for game balance. I think someone made a good analogy that you cant go in the Rifleman forum and ask them to NERF the t-21 youll get flamed. Poeple dont want to look at the positives it would bring and would rather discount it because they just really have no conception of game balance or integrity. I also think ill be quitting because I set a personal deadline for the devs to get us an answer and we havent seen one yet.

Also note that tons of other issues go up on other professions top 5 daily that would affect other professions and that if known people would debate over. Its not the norm to be bias against 1 issue and have a community wide vote on wether it should be us artisans top 5. Not like being in the top 5 is an issue thats guaranateed to get implemented.

If the developers actually have read the arguments then why should I wait around? Whats the deal. And more importantly not saying anything means they agree with the excuse me ******'s in that it isnt needed or it would raise prices. That just means they arent very smart and I dont want to subscribe to a game I could design better myself. I want them on an equal playing field of ideals and not this secretive, undercover, false hope's all while hearing NOTHING.

IF its at their list of things to look at pfff. THis is a priority not a casual recommendation.

So there we have it, no you cant have my stuff and goodbye and enjoy the broken game and the unorganized, unproductive development team who doesnt have their priorities straight. I can understand being busy but I cant understand having an intelligent enough community relations person to get some kind of word to me. And last I checked you can talk and type at the same time so your not wasting any development time. WHat do you all think and when are we going to see it?

.........

Ill stick around until my subscription ends but if nothing is said goodbye. Thats incompetance if I ever seen it.

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Yeesh, all I have to say is what a pompous windbag! good riddance to ya!

It kinda boggles me that people actually argue for this kinda change, I doubt there is any way in hell that the devs would even think about it let alone do it. How exactly is this going to bring 'balance' or 'integrity' to the game I wonder?

Imagine how all the people who have poured loads of cash into harvesters would feel at having them become useless overnight, I myself have poured more than 10 million into harvesters alone to fill MY lots not some rented lots from someone else which I see lots of whining about. The economy would self destruct with this, and how you dont realise that is beyond me.

All thisidea would create is a riot among the players.

I dont think Harvesters should have certification.

There are many crafting professions in the game other than those based on the Artisian tree. Smugglers, Doctors, Combat Medics, Musicians and BE all need to use the resources gathered via harvesters. I dont see why we should hurt all these other professions by requiring certs.

You dont need to have an Architect certification to place a PA hall, or any house for that matter.

Scooter,

You are correct that it looks as if the majority in the poll voted "No." In a context in which many of the people probably couldn't have even seen many of the yes votes at the time they posted due to the 1-starring of posts (some of which such as a few of Sinisit's may have deserved 1-starring but the majority didn't).

We do realize that artisan is a basic profession. Just as medic is a basic profession. But there are some very useful things that medics can use that non-medics totally can't. Stim Bs come to mind.

It is certainly appropriate for there to be discussion of what abilities should lie in which trees. I imagine that most medics in the medic forum wouldn't say that everyone who takes one set of skill boxes should have access to almost all of what medics are capable of doing. There is thus cause for ongoing discussion about the harvesting of resources and the value of the artisan survey thread.

Read what Guruweaver said. I am satisfied with Guruweaver's response. A hard look at harvesting and other issues related to acquiring resources is one of the artisan top 5 issues. Who knows what the devs will decide when they take a hard look. And it's really up to the devs, not me, not you, not the marjority of the community. Making it one of the top 5 issues, added to what Guruweaver has done in bringing other entire threads to the attention of the devs is really what Guruweaver is able to do about this. And I don't think proponents or opponents of certification can really complain that Guruweaver has unreasonably taken sides. I might have been a bit unhappy if something related to resource harvesting weren't one of our top 5 issues given the amount of discussion the topic has received in recent days in comparison to what the artisan's other issues could be. But that didn't happen. And it didn't happen because Guruweaver is committed to representing a sometimes-divided community as best he can. And in some cases his is a difficult task.

I am listening to what Guruweaver has to say. I expect it to be fair and balanced without taking a position on the issue of certifications if it mentions them at all. But don't think that listening to our Correspondent means that the certification issue has been dropped. It hasn't. And as I understand it, this issue rears its head from time to time in these forums. I will certainly listen to the devs and drop this issue. And I'm not going to argue for "harvester certifications" to be the question we ask the devs. I might argue for something like increasing the value of the survey line of artisan with respect to resource extraction, which seems to have some support even among the opponents of certification.

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Sinist wrote:

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Dokar_of_Scylla wrote:

Sinist are you a member of an elite crafting profession.

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Yes, Armorsmith.

Well I am a novice Armorsmith and have just really been a watcher of the Armorsmith community so far. If things get changed and I stick around then well you will see me more active in the Armorsmith community.

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I'll bet you were a creature handler before they were nerfed. then you were a bh until they nerfed the scatter. After that a Commando. Too bad the Dot's got nerfed. Nothing left for you but 90% armor now. What are you going to do when they nerf that?

Every single one of your posts sounds like a whiner. How can you ever believe that factories need to be certed for master elites? the reason for skill points is that you can go as far as you want and not be stuck to a single profession which you would then be compelled to master. I grant you that a novice WS with firearms 3 isn't going to make very good weaps, but he has the right. He has the ability to make blaster power handlers, and a laser carbine which takes 3 of them. Why don't you think he should be able to make his own factory crates? Because you are near-sighted in you desire to get what you want. Your posts are not well thought out. You don't respect the opinion of others, and it reflects on you.

I won't miss you. Bye.

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Sinist wrote:

CityCowboy also by your post you understand 0 about it. And more importantly you understand 0 of the logic. And your post is one big assumption with nofacts only opinions.

The numbers have been crunched, the concerns answered. And well your wrong. Everyone hwo is agianst harvester certifications is wrong.

Understand it. Deal with it.Or play the game like it is broken.

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AudioOrgana wrote:

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CityCowBoy wrote:

AudioOrgana,

I agree with you that once the holo grind is over there will be an over saturation of resources on the market.

It's not just the market, it's over saturation of resources, period. There are consistently tons more resources coming into the game at all times than can ever be used. With the exception of vehicles and architect items, the majority of the products in the game take very little actual resources. They may need specific kinds/qualities, but when you break it down to an actual number of total resources it's tiny compared to what is being cranked in on a daily basis.

To be frank I could careless about the resource market so far as making huge profits is concerned. I personally dont think you should be able to do nothing more then survey a high concentration of a good resource, place a fleet of heavies, and become a millionaire.

This is going to be a long-term problem with SWG, which is the point here. It's not about the prices of resources - that's the symptom/indicator of the problem. The core of the issue is simply that there are too many resources in this game. All resource production could shut down tomorrow and the galaxycould chug along for quite some time just fine.

In the economic post, Holo said that there is too much money in the game - and I think a large reason for that is that there are too many resources because even if they are low-valued they still exist in their own, unalterable quanity - a 100K stack of steel may be "worth" more credits at one point than it is another, but it always remains a 100K stack of steel.

As much as the BER-10 mediums and even better heavies are great in terms of player gain, it is really starting to drain the economy. We are sucking up liquid assets out of the ground 23 hours a day, many more than we are using.

I guess that is part of my problem with a miner profession or, worse, an Artisan/miner hybrid profession.

As I said above, I agree that a profession isn't the answer for the simple reason that it directs all this liquid cash into one profession that would be the supplier of all professions on one level or another (to the crafter or to the combat player as a third party).

I just fail to see how driving down the prices of resources is going to hurt anyone, long term, other then players that just arent able to cut it in the elite professions yet wish to have to income of those in the elite professions.

Driving down resource prices by itself isn't a bad thing, but since the whole economy rests on resources (they are the basis for everything) it's going to have a huge impact across the board. Things would become so forcibly cheap that all business-minded crafters would likely not participate anymore.

The bank accounts of miners is the LEAST of the concerns. That's actually an argument for certifications, because those people would actually have to invest a few skill points in order to be able to dump their fields of heavies (same to those who "share" lots across servers). Sure, it's not a big deal to climb up the survey tree, but at least it's something - now all one does is roll, land, place, log and bam - 10 free lots. The concern here is for the crafting community that uses these resources.

Lets face it, once the resource market collapses like a deck of cards there will be a mass exodus out of the mining industry. Prices will eventually stabilize and the market will recover... not to the point that it was where you could make millions... but it will be a viable way to make some extra credits.

One can only hope. But we will still have a vast surplus, and the issue of resources being easy for ANYONE to gather in large quanities with only a small financial investment remains.

I just cant help but think that the DEVs not only saw this but wanted this... Why else would they allow the increase in the harvesting of inorganic resources if they didnt intend for even more resources to put into the market?

If I remember correctly, it wasn't entirely intentional. Architects, please chime in - but when it happened I believe it was a side-effect of another change. I actually was led to believe that it was a bug - but it has still remained.

Perhaps an oversight, wouldnt be the first, but interesting nevertheless to ponder.

Oversight or not, it comes down to this : the economy has ALWAYS had theproblem of too much coming in/not enough going out in terms of resources, but by the time it was becoming obvious Hologrinding kicked in and compensated.

It's always been here, but now that Hologrinding is winding down it's starting to become more obvious. Harvester certifications may not be the best soloution, but if the Dev team is truly trying to drain the economy a bit as they say they are the over-abundance of resources is certainly an obvious factor. It's not as sexy as mission terminal grosses, which are insta-cash - but the huge influx of resources compared to those consumed daily by crafters can't be ignored.

AO

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I agree with you in many ways AO. There are two kinds of faucets flowing into the game: Cash and resources.

One point i disagree on is the organic resources. After the chef revamp there was a pretty big shortage there. The organics are in a lot better shape now than other resource types.

I'd like to see the inflow of resources slowed somewhat myself. I'd like to see special requirement resources with good stats become rare at a quicker rate. It's not gonna happened when 8 guys from one guild harvest over 1 mil units each of it.

One of the thoughts that I had was raising the price of harvester maint. I think this would only cut back on the amt of resources harvested that never get used. This is the stuff that ppl destroy or grind anyway. Keep in mind that many of these harvs will no longer be placed when ppl don't need the resources anymore. If ppl stop buying, ppl will stop mining.

I'm basically rambling some thoughts about this issue here. Sorry for the disconnection.

If a WS decides he wants 3 mil units of the new ostrine ore, harv certs aren't going to stop him. Most likely money won't either. He'll have as many ppl as he can put down personal harv (no way the devs will ever cert them). As long as you can mule any harv, the resource flow isn't going to slow with certs. What will slow it is higher maint costs for harvs. Ppl won't harv stuff they don't need. (or not as much of it, anyway - even if this assumption is wrong, it doesn't affect my final argument. The point here was to demonstrate that certs weren't going to slow down harv rates, and they won't as long as the crafters that want it have cash). This will cause them to delve into their good stuff quicker as they draw lower on stock. Now that we've rid ourself of the notion of slowing server wide harv rates with certs, lets go on to what artisans gain from certs.

Artisans can become resource providers. They can already though. The difference is that they can provide in a higher volume than other ppl, but since we already said we were going to have the same number of incoming resources, the prices aren't going to change. It's just that more of the money will be going into artisans pockets.

So what we have now is an environment that could possible cause some high volume elite crafters to jump through hoops to get the number of resources that they desire in order to put a few extra bucks in an artisans pocket.

I don't like it. It puts alot of inconvenience into the game for other professions without giving artisans a new skill or ability. It only gives them a larger cut of the pie. I agree that harvester certs would make some things more rewarding from a gameplay aspect to the artisan, but I don't think the end result is an overall improvement to galaxy wide gameplay.

There's also a problem inherent to harvester certs. Certs for all of the harvs would have to take place in the artisan prof. they couldn't go into the elite crafting profs. Sinist (I'm not bashing here, I'm using your example - I'm gonna shoot down my original cert proposal in a sec) proposed medium harvs at novice elite and heavies at master artisan. This is fine if you make the assumption that the player is a master elite crafter first, and an artisan second. This give him/her extra reward for picking up master artisan. But does it makes sense for me to master artisan and be able to use a heavy harv, yet not be able to use a medium one? That's just a bit silly. That's what happens when you become a master artisan but don't take up an elite crafting profession. I had propose mediums at survey 3 and heavies at novice elite. Under this method, you could get heavies without mediums again if you became a novice elite but didn't take up survey. The only way I can see certs working is mediums at survey 3 and heavies at master artisan, unless you want to gank them from artisan and put them at novice elite and master elite.

doh, just occured to me. You totally screw the architect too if you cert them. they now have less business.

Wow, AO and CityCowboy great discussion. I wished I'd read a bit further before I tossed in my two cents. I'm going to kick in 3 more cents here and make it a nickel though. I think the deciding facton in this whole thing is that a credit dupe from months ago made it possible to grab all the resources we want. When the economy trims down, we may see this whole resource market change.

The problem is what to do about the existing resource piles. They can be allowed to slowly trickle out, or resource reqs on schem can be boosted 15%, but that's an issue for the devs.

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PadiOne wrote:

Wow, AO and CityCowboy great discussion. I wished I'd read a bit further before I tossed in my two cents. I'm going to kick in 3 more cents here and make it a nickel though. I think the deciding facton in this whole thing is that a credit dupe from months ago made it possible to grab all the resources we want. When the economy trims down, we may see this whole resource market change.

The problem is what to do about the existing resource piles. They can be allowed to slowly trickle out, or resource reqs on schem can be boosted 15%, but that's an issue for the devs.

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What is your motivation for removing resource from the game that is already there?

Yet more greed?

Crafters have worked long and hard to gather resouces and you mant to nerf that, why?

Resouce vendors are making plenty of credits. If you look at it a BER 13 heavy on a good percentage pulls in resource an 0.5 to 1.0 credits per unit so the profit margin is there already. The only reason to remove the exising resouce as I see it is so demand can escalate and people can increase their profit margins.