Artisan Archive
Thread: Comments regarding Harvester Certification issue poll
I think you probably got caught in the general 1 staring that started after Sinist went insane Joined 
. Alas the debate wascivil until he started name calling and one starring everyone who dissagree'd with him.
I kinda wish they'd devalued the currency after the duping as well. Just lop a zero off everyones bank account woulda been fine with me.
I know you're worried about the grind miners switching to high quality resources once the holomarket goes away, but I really don't think it'll be a problem. Watching and waiting for high quality materials is a lot more work then plopping your harvesters down in a new spot once a week, and it actually requires a lot of knowledge about the resource market.
And you also say you're worried that the grind harvest fleet will block true crafters from mining what they need, but honestly it isn't that hard to find space. High % spots near towns are often clogged, but all it takes is a little legwork to find space farther out. I don't even look around coronet for space anymore when I search. I start in one of the player cities in the central flatlands area of corellia. And even if a whole planet is truly covered in harvesters, most resourecs almost always spawn on multiple planets. Switching to one of the less travelled planets to prospect is easy.
All in all I mine on bria, the single most populated server. And I very rarely have trouble finding a spot for harvesters.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Idea
Keep current Harvestors the same. No changes.
Add new Harvesters, exact same BER but....... can be put down on rougher terrain then normal Harvestors. Must be MA to use the new Harvs.
How many times have you found a great spot, but couldn't drop a harvestor?
This post needs love. It's actually a great idea. It'd make Rori suck a little less than usual.
CityCowBoy wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
CityCowBoy wrote:
How much do you charge for those droids?
I know each heavy harvester cost me1,728c per day (72c/h)per harvester. I think for non-merchants it is 2160 (90c/h).
So assuming you have 5 heavies running for two weeks you are paying out 151,200per two weeks.
Then we can assume you have one medium house... I pay 30c/h with my merchant bonus (not sure on the reg cost).. so that is 10,080per two weeks...
Then we can assume you have 3 factories... that is 50c/h I believe on the food ones (not sure on the equipment).. so that is 50,400 per two weeks.
Grand total is: 211,680 give or take a few. Oh, this isnt including traveling expenses
You make that selling one droid every two weeks?! Good lord I am in the wrong business
If I used your figures, it would take a droid every week. I only sell high-end models, and my prices range from 50K-150K.
However, I don't run heavies - too hard to place and just not as cost-effective as mediums. At this point, I just have never bother upgrading. 10 BER produces more than I will ever need. And I tend to swap factories in and out with harvesters - rarely is everything going at once.
(harvester certs vs. weapon certs)
Not a valid comparison IHMO.
1. The markman's FWG5 is a tool given to him via his skill box. The harvester is not a tool that is in any profession's skill tree.
Right - bingo.
Here is the issue.
2. Resources, unlike the FWG5, is the life blood of the game from the perspective that nothing can be crafted without them.
This being the case, any limitation placed on harvesters will funnel huge amounts of cash to whatever profession it is based on... Especially if all other professions are limited to personals
You think too much like a crafter.
The "lifeblood" for a combat person is that FWG. WIthout it he is helpless. With it he can earn many credits and it opens up the entire game content. Seriously - most combat people don't think one iota about where that gun comes from, it's of no concern for them. It's like most people buying meat from the grocery store - it comes from the guy who packs it behind the glass as you watch, not from a slaughterhouse.
You are right that a key part of the issue, as I have said from my first posting on this topic, is to avoid funneling all of this to a single elite profession. I'm not as convinced just requiring Novice Artisan would be such a hardship. If I wanna harvest the creatures that I kill I need scout - and that's after I've already killed it.
This is why, as I have said, certs may not be the soloution - but I still feel that some control needs to happen somewhere, even if it's just an increase in the cost of use.
3. Artisan does not encompass all the crafting professions. Bio-Engineers, Combat Medics, Doctors, Medics, and Smugglers are all professions that require resources but they do not fall under the Artisan tree.
True. They also need lots of organics that you must be a scout AND a combat profession to gather. But I don't think asking them to invest in a novice skill box is too much to ask to be self-sufficent. And I definately don't think it's too much to ask those professions that are making tons of credits with their sales (have you seen what good CH pets go for these days, or the rising price of buffs, or the uber-nature of the items CM's make?) to have to pay more, like everyone else, for resources.
I just dont subscribe that the SWG market will collapse due to an over abundance of junk resources.
I dont feel that taking away other player's ability to use cash cow harvesters is going to benefit anyone other then the class that gets dibs on them.
Credits, not resources, are the foundation of the SWG economy. Resources, while vital, are nothing other then a conversion of .5 credits into a resource.
Some of these resources are about to become worthless and that, my friend, is the best damn money sink I can think of
Which is why perhaps some other, non-skill point control may be the answer.
And I guess we just disagree fundamentally - at once you say that resources are what make up all the items in our economy, yet you just don't see them as having intrinsic value.
WIthout resources to make the things to buy, creditswould beworthless.
Without credits, resources/deeds would be the currency because they have intrinstic value - they can be turned into something.
This topic is why a player-driven MMO economy has never really worked before, and it will be very interesting to see where it turns out. SWG attempts to compensate by charging for structure upkeep, but I think it's time to rexamine that method of resource control because at this point in the game they are proving to be less effective than they once were now that Hologrinding is begining to loose it's hold on the economy.
AO
Dvnce
this is tough for a correspondent to do sometimes.. Even though we are players too.. it is easy for some to assume that we speak directly for SOE.. When in fact we speak for our fellow players... it is also easy for some to assume that when we speak our personal opinion we ignore what the majority wishes..
on the subject... I had someone suggest to me.. (i guess because we make the harvesters this guy thought i had the final say ... ) but he suggested instead of ripping harvesters from everyone why not cert them like a gun... He pointed out that as a crafter he is not certed for a lazer rifle but he still can pick one up an shoot one... So his point was maybe it is not unreasonable for certs to be in the Survey line.. but people without the certs would only loose a little effectiveness from their harvesters..
Yes, I understand people making assumptions People are assuming now that all those that want certs for harvesters are just wanting it for monitary reasons. And no matter how many times its stated with quilfied answers, they still go back to accusing. Just human nature I guess. But on the bright side - I hope they let you correspondents into first SE beta as a reward for your dedication and efforts put forth for the game. Only seems right to me
even this bit of certing would help to some degree. But you will still get an outcry from those same players that are vehemently arguing against it now. I given up trying to reason with them and will wait for Dev interaction.
BTW even though I'm not an architect, thanks for your service to the game too, and as for all the correspondents.
AudioOrgana,
I very much enjoyed our conversation You have earned 5-stars from me in each and everyone of our debates.
I think fundamentally we want the same thing; To have fun in SWG and to have fun crafting in SWG.
I think we also agree that the economy is not as healthy as it should be and that something needs to be done about it.
We just differ about how to go about that
My hope is always that SOE, with the help of the community, can come up with solutions to bugs/exploits/imbalances/ect ect ect by "thinking outside the box" using creative andinnovative solutions that will add to the game not take away from it.
Too often the easiest solution is to swing the nerf bat... and sometimes that is the way to go (combat re-balance and armor re-balance for example)... But sometimes the DEVs use that as just a short sighted and easy way out solution that ends up taking away some of the fun of the game.
Bottom line is the game must be fun!!! Personally, for reasons that I've stated in our conversations, I find the cert system not to be fun
In fact, Ibelieve the very reason that was given why there was never a mining profession, outside of beta, was that is just wasnt fun.
While my Alt (citycowboy) is a master Artisan, he is a master Artisan because I find the profession fun to play! I feel like that should always be a reason to pick up a profession... I dont think people should be forced to spend SP in a profession they dont want to play as that, in the end, only takes away from the game for that player.
I always advocate:
- More content
- More choices
- More diversity
The cert system, while a possible way to correct certain issues, takes away from all 3 of the above... Hence not fun IMHO.
Heh Rudoku,
I don't think most of the people even saw my post.
I thought it was a great idea as well. Keeps everything else EXACTLY the same for everybody else. Yet would allow better access to Master Artisans.
I can already picture what they would look like. Harvesters on stilts, kind of like an Oil platform, with a cool looking beam drilling down.
Instead of thr ground needing to be flat, they would allow for terrain variance up to say 45%
Rudoku wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Idea
Keep current Harvestors the same. No changes.
Add new Harvesters, exact same BER but....... can be put down on rougher terrain then normal Harvestors. Must be MA to use the new Harvs.
How many times have you found a great spot, but couldn't drop a harvestor?
This post needs love. It's actually a great idea. It'd make Rori suck a little less than usual.
i missed that one (for shame)..what a great idea
if the entire purpose of harvester certifications is to improve the artisans as a class (a questionable conclusion at best since some but not all are complaining strictly about money) then something like this would be of great service to the profession without nerfing everyone else.
SargusQuintek wrote:I have a question--why artisans? They are on the lowest rung of crafting. If anyone should get higher certs it should be elite professions.
This kinda strikes a nerve with me (mostly because I hear this in places I'd rather not).
Why would artisans be interested in some sort of mining idea? Because we encompase the only skills that allow one to see what resources are present and sample (hand mine) them. It is an exclusive ability of artisans.
This issue (harvesters and mining) is hardly settled, although I will not be calling for harvester certifications specifically, clearly some sort adjustment seems desired my many and it will be one of the artisan top 5 to call for a hard look at resources, surveying, and harvesting.
I'm pulling together a document to this effect and will post it in a seperate thread for debate.
Take care,
Guruweaver wrote:
SargusQuintek wrote:
I have a question--why artisans? They are on the lowest rung of crafting. If anyone should get higher certs it should be elite professions.
This kinda strikes a nerve with me (mostly because I hear this in places I'd rather not).
Why would artisans be interested in some sort of mining idea? Because we encompase the only skills that allow one to see what resources are present and sample (hand mine) them. It is an exclusive ability of artisans.
This issue (harvesters and mining) is hardly settled, although I will not be calling for harvester certifications specifically, clearly some sort adjustment seems desired my many and it will be one of the artisan top 5 to call for a hard look at resources, surveying, and harvesting.
I'm pulling together a document to this effect and will post it in a seperate thread for debate.
Take care,
Guruweaver wrote:
This issue (harvesters and mining) is hardly settled, although I will not be calling for harvester certifications specifically, clearly some sort adjustment seems desired my many and it will be one of the artisan top 5 to call for a hard look at resources, surveying, and harvesting.
Guruweaver,
I'm glad for Artisans everywhere you decided not to waste one of your top five issues on something that no doubt never would have materialized in it proposed format as presented by the majority of the minority that was/is pushing for harvester certs.
Perhaps you are privy to better arguments then I... Everything I read about the harvester cert idea was laced in greed. The cover, "The economy is in trouble!!! Bring in harvester Certs" was quickly unveiled when none of these proponents could come up with a good reason why we should go about this fix via the cert system in the artisan tree and not some other BROAD fix.
There are many ways to reduce the resources in the galaxy **if** that indeed is the problem. I do not feel that it is but, for the sake of argument, lets say that it is.
The simple and logical solution is to reduce BER output of harvesters and to increase spawn times between good resources with a possible reduction in the amount of time they are in shift.
I'm sure there are a lot of other good ideas that are better then this one.
It is my hope that you understand that the majority of all crafters (many of them also artisans) will be against giving Artisans the kind of economic power that certs under Artisans would entail.
- You're going to have one group who will be against it because they are non-Artisan crafters (like me on this account) who feel it would give Artisan Elites an unfair advantage.
- Artisans Elites that are against it because they want to maintain their "status" over the basic professions
- Finally crafters who just dont want to spend anymore sp then they already have. Skill points are already a scare commodity and the idea of having to "stretch" the same small amount of skill points pool ever further is just not appealing.
I would humbly suggest you understand Artisan should never make you millions no more then Marksmen or Entertainer should. All basic professions should be nothing more then a stepping stone to an elite.
I think the goal should be to make the basics "work" (IE fix bugs).
Content should be added only as part of the larger picture when the Elites get content "lovin". Elites should get first dibs basics should receive supporting roles.
Obviously these are just my humble opinions. I do feel strongly about them
This fix, as proposed, is a solution heavily biased towards Artisans and is not balanced.
Finally I would just like to remind you that not only was the miner profession in beta tossed out, everytime it is brought up to TH it is politely rejected.
I just cant help but feel all this energy on your part, and on the part of a minority of artisans, is just a momentous waste.
Thank you
Vezek I did not call for harvester certifications, nor will I. Please do not put words into my mouth.
You have not yet seen what I suggesting. I would ask you and all others to please reserve judgement until after I have posted my proposal.
Rest assured that I do not intend to try to ram through some massive power grab for greedy artisans. I do not posess that power, and even if I did, I wouldn't do it. Nor do I propose a massive 'nerf' of the game.
All I said was that resource harvesting in general needs some looking at. There are real and effective arguments on the issue, both for and against any change what so ever in the resource harvesting system.
On a more editorial note, many folks assume that any change at all to this system will result in some reduction of the ability of non-crafters to harvest resources. I think if folks were to look back at all my opinion on this issue, you will find I have never made that statement. Many of you assume that any change will be a 'nerf', again, look back. I have never made any such proposal.
Folks, honestly, calm down and wait and see. The simple fact that there has been such debate on the issue underscores the need to elevate the discussion. To spur that discussion, resource harvesting will be one of our top five issues.
Take care,