Artisan Archive
Thread: New Powerups on TC-5 *listing and test results*
NikkiT wrote:
If you want to get more hit opportunities (maybe because you want that bleed to stick on that hard-to-hit opponent), go for speed. If you want to conserve action/mind, you would go for more damage, less speed and thus less specials to use. Right?
QFE
this is exactly what happens with the damage vs speed trade off.
Message Edited by Ackehece on 04-07-2005 09:43 AM
johnautry613 wrote:
Helios_SOE wrote:
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
This idea has a problem with it.
Imaginary example weapon:
AVG damage 100, Speed 3.
DPS: 33.3
Put a power up on it, that, as you show, gives a balance between speed and damage. so -20% speed and + 20 % damage:
AVG damage 120, speed 3.6
DPS 33.3
Fire the weapon as many times as you can in say 120 seconds, 2 minutes.
120/3 = 40 shots. 40 * 100 = 4,000 damage caused.
120/3.6 = 33.3 Shots. 33.3 * 120 = 4,000 damage caused.
In ANY long run trial with a power up that treats itself as a pure balance between speed and efficency, then there is no point in using the power up. It would be a complete waste of yuour time and money.
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
neinnunb wrote:
The powerup gets used up fairly quickly. Having to insert one every couple of minutes is a drag and if the benefit for one is going to be less after CU then people wont bother to buy them. The solution I think is to increase the uses powerups have, from lets say 100 to 500 or even 1000, but also increase the resources required to make them by the same multiplier.
I agree with this, just from a balance standpoint... also PERHAPS lessening the weapon-decay increase would be a good idea.
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Helios_SOE wrote:
Animi wrote:
Thanks for the info.
I'm sad to see they've made damage and speed opposing pairs. It seems to me that increasing one at the expense of the other negates the benefit of the powerup altogether.
We'll have to see what the DPS numbers are with that type of powerup equipped and unequipped.
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
We need to balance our weapons by the full potential of a weapon's power (including crafting, slicing & powerups). In tandem with that effort, we are also trying to make sure that you don't absolutely need a slice or powerup (or both) to use your weapon effectively. Not to say that these things won't give you an overall edge in combat (because they should), but they can't be "make-or-break" portions of the weapon. This is why you won't see a "free" 30% dmg increase on a powerup any more.
All of that being said, I look forward to your ideas. We will most likely not be making sweeping changes to how the powerups work, but if you have some good ideas (with supporting arguments) as to how the system might be tweaked without breaking weapon balance, I'll be happy to listen to them.
While I understand your need to balance. There has to be a benefit or no one will waste the time to A. make them and B. buy them. Plus you will destroy any niche market certain artisans have built up. I know a crafter in my PA that makes most of his credits from the sale of PUs.
I understand not wanting them to be a must have, but an equal + to dmg - to speed is not very smart. Why would anyone invent something that equally hurts a weapon as it helps, thus negating the benifit of the intended increase. I'm not saying you should drastically overhaul, but if you leave it as is, no one will make them, because no one will buy them.
RSQViper wrote:The thing with powerups is they are used up SO fast.I'd rather they took more resources but lasted that much longer. Like a 1000 use or 500 use powerup.Also, and I may be alone in this, I think that slicing should be more effective than a powerup. The reasoning behind that would be because they are illegal. But, I would also like to see that those weapons that are sliced to reject powerups. That way you avoid the sliced w/powered up weapons. The advantage to the powerup would be passing scans vice failing them with a sliced weapon.
I think that is a Great balanced relationship between slicing and powerups.
/thumbsup
You are not alone, I definately agree with you on that one and I would absolutely love to see the Devs take that approach!
By making sliced weapons unable to accept powerups, making powerups a little longer lasting than previous powerups, and making their effectiveness a couple of percentage points below slice-jobs... you are creating a clear divide.
Legal weapon modifications or ilegal mods that are better but offer risk.
The way it is now, just about everyone has their weapon sliced.
Those that choose not to are basically playing with a large handicap.
By making the legal alternative unable to combine with the ilegal, you are taking away a clear advantage that the ilegal users get (Combining both stat mods).
They'd still have the advantage... as they'd have better mods that last much longer. And of course they'd still have the risk of getting caught.
The law-abiding citizens woul be able to obey the law, while still being able to acquire decent modifications... all the while knowing that those that break the law cannot double modify their weapons.
This idea would make it so that Players have more of a reason to choose NOT to carry ilegal weapons.
It would cut into both the artisan's market and the smugglers market, but I think it's a great balance.
Maybe there needs to be one more factor that would make the powerups more worthwhile though... we wouldn't want it so that no one uses powerups at all because they all have their weapons sliced...
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Message Edited by omadnay on 04-07-2005 01:09 PM
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
Accuracy is a factor. Many specials have effects other than damage.
VemaGara wrote:
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
Accuracy is a factor. Many specials have effects other than damage.
I think you missed it. I am talking about a pure trade off between damage and speed, accuracy is a constant. You will miss the same proportion in any situation.
So in any situation where dps is unchanged, then the average damge at any given point in time is equal on any time horizon. This is due to the fact that ALL other factors are equal.
johnautry613 wrote:
This idea has a problem with it.
Imaginary example weapon:
AVG damage 100, Speed 3.
DPS: 33.3
Put a power up on it, that, as you show, gives a balance between speed and damage. so -20% speed and + 20 % damage:
AVG damage 120, speed 3.6
DPS 33.3
Fire the weapon as many times as you can in say 120 seconds, 2 minutes.
120/3 = 40 shots. 40 * 100 = 4,000 damage caused.
120/3.6 = 33.3 Shots. 33.3 * 120 = 4,000 damage caused.
In ANY long run trial with a power up that treats itself as a pure balance between speed and efficency, then there is no point in using the power up. It would be a complete waste of yuour time and money.
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
Fire the weapon as many times as you can in say 120 seconds, 2 minutes.
120/3 = 40 shots. 40 * 70% = 28 hits/12 misses.
120/3.6 = 33.3 Shots. 33.3 * 70% = 23.3 hits/10 misses.
So while you miss only 2 less times, you hit almost 5 less times in those 2 minutes. It depends if you're looking at a long DPS fight or a short dizzy/KD/damage fight. And from what I understand, most PvP won't last long enough to get into statistical arguments anyway. If I want to land a dizzy with in6 seconds, I am better off with the speed at 3 and getting2 chances than at 3.6 with1 chance (and some change)...
My point, if I have one (hehe), is that the powerup may make no difference to you, but it might make a BIG difference to me. Stop being so selfish...
johnautry613 wrote:
VemaGara wrote:
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
Accuracy is a factor. Many specials have effects other than damage.
I think you missed it. I am talking about a pure trade off between damage and speed, accuracy is a constant. You will miss the same proportion in any situation.
So in any situation where dps is unchanged, then the average damge at any given point in time is equal on any time horizon. This is due to the fact that ALL other factors are equal.
Well if that's ALL you're talking about, then you're right. But there's more to fighting than DPS...
I like how these pups work. It removes some complexity/preparation for average combat but it also adds some complexity to your options. It is not just looking at DPS. Depending on your speed skill increasing damage and lowering speed might be worth it.
One thing to think about. If humans will still have bonus to artisan experimentation it might become unbalanced for crafters. 14 pt experimentation for humans compared to 12 for all other races.
omadnay wrote:
I think that is a Great balanced relationship between slicing and powerups.
RSQViper wrote:
The thing with powerups is they are used up SO fast.
I'd rather they took more resources but lasted that much longer. Like a 1000 use or 500 use powerup.
Also, and I may be alone in this, I think that slicing should be more effective than a powerup. The reasoning behind that would be because they are illegal. But, I would also like to see that those weapons that are sliced to reject powerups. That way you avoid the sliced w/powered up weapons. The advantage to the powerup would be passing scans vice failing them with a sliced weapon.
/thumbsup
You are not alone, I definately agree with you on that one and I would absolutely love to see the Devs take that approach!
By making sliced weapons unable to accept powerups, making powerups a little longer lasting than previous powerups, and making their effectiveness a couple of percentage points below slice-jobs... you are creating a clear divide.
Legal weapon modifications or ilegal mods that are better but offer risk.
The way it is now, just about everyone has their weapon sliced.
Those that choose not to are basically playing with a large handicap.
By making the legal alternative unable to combine with the ilegal, you are taking away a clear advantage that the ilegal users get (Combining both stat mods).
They'd still have the advantage... as they'd have better mods that last much longer. And of course they'd still have the risk of getting caught.
The law-abiding citizens woul be able to obey the law, while still being able to acquire decent modifications... all the while knowing that those that break the law cannot double modify their weapons.
This idea would make it so that Players have more of a reason to choose NOT to carry ilegal weapons.
It would cut into both the artisan's market and the smugglers market, but I think it's a great balance.
Maybe there needs to be one more factor that would make the powerups more worthwhile though... we wouldn't want it so that no one uses powerups at all because they all have their weapons sliced...
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Message Edited by RSQViper on 04-07-2005 01:32 PM