Artisan Archive
Thread: New Powerups on TC-5 *listing and test results*
Helios_SOE wrote:There is a lot of constructive and, more importantly, objective feedback here. Please continue to post your findings and impressions, especially for the mid to high level weapons as well.Thank you guys for taking time to try these things out and for reporting your findings here.Message Edited by Helios_SOE on 04-07-2005 07:21 AM
More importantly, thanks for taking the time to read them.
Animi wrote:
Thanks for the info.
I'm sad to see they've made damage and speed opposing pairs. It seems to me that increasing one at the expense of the other negates the benefit of the powerup altogether.
We'll have to see what the DPS numbers are with that type of powerup equipped and unequipped.
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
We need to balance our weapons by the full potential of a weapon's power (including crafting, slicing & powerups). In tandem with that effort, we are also trying to make sure that you don't absolutely need a slice or powerup (or both) to use your weapon effectively. Not to say that these things won't give you an overall edge in combat (because they should), but they can't be "make-or-break" portions of the weapon. This is why you won't see a "free" 30% dmg increase on a powerup any more.
All of that being said, I look forward to your ideas. We will most likely not be making sweeping changes to how the powerups work, but if you have some good ideas (with supporting arguments) as to how the system might be tweaked without breaking weapon balance, I'll be happy to listen to them. 
Helios_SOE wrote:
Animi wrote:Thanks for the info.I'm sad to see they've made damage and speed opposing pairs. It seems to me that increasing one at the expense of the other negates the benefit of the powerup altogether.We'll have to see what the DPS numbers are with that type of powerup equipped and unequipped.That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
We need to balance our weapons by the full potential of a weapon's power (including crafting, slicing & powerups). In tandem with that effort, we are also trying to make sure that you don't absolutely need a slice or powerup (or both) to use your weapon effectively. Not to say that these things won't give you an overall edge in combat (because they should), but they can't be "make-or-break" portions of the weapon. This is why you won't see a "free" 30% dmg increase on a powerup any more.
All of that being said, I look forward to your ideas. We will most likely not be making sweeping changes to how the powerups work, but if you have some good ideas (with supporting arguments) as to how the system might be tweaked without breaking weapon balance, I'll be happy to listen to them.
How about having things set up something like this:
30% increase to damage, 15% increase to speed. Make it so the effect isn't a 1:1 ratio.
Or maybe something like a 30% increase to damage , 5 percent increase to speed, 10 percent increase to special action cost. Vary up the negatives so it is possible to increase the DPS but still has the some sort of penalty.
neinnunb wrote:
The powerup gets used up fairly quickly. Having to insert one every couple of minutes is a drag and if the benefit for one is going to be less after CU then people wont bother to buy them. The solution I think is to increase the uses powerups have, from lets say 100 to 500 or even 1000, but also increase the resources required to make them by the same multiplier.
Helios_SOE wrote:
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
This idea has a problem with it.
Imaginary example weapon:
AVG damage 100, Speed 3.
DPS: 33.3
Put a power up on it, that, as you show, gives a balance between speed and damage. so -20% speed and + 20 % damage:
AVG damage 120, speed 3.6
DPS 33.3
Fire the weapon as many times as you can in say 120 seconds, 2 minutes.
120/3 = 40 shots. 40 * 100 = 4,000 damage caused.
120/3.6 = 33.3 Shots. 33.3 * 120 = 4,000 damage caused.
In ANY long run trial with a power up that treats itself as a pure balance between speed and efficency, then there is no point in using the power up. It would be a complete waste of yuour time and money.
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
Animi wrote:
So not only is my suspicion confirmed that the reduction in speed cancels out the increase in damage, but your tests show that it actually MAKES THE DPS WORSE.
That's why you shouldn't make speed and damage opposing pairs. Same thing happens on someshipwright components (shields, etc.).
This is why I don't make nearly any of the ship subcomponents because the trade-off isn't worth the trouble of crafting them. You typically to loose more than you gain. The only subcomponent that I tend to make is the power core for the reactor which adds power but also mass. That's the only one that's worth dealing with.
I see this same situation happening with the powerups. In the long run the trade off between the positives and negatives aren't worth it plus it makes the weapon decay faster making it an undesirable addon.
I have crafted and tested them on TC5 on various weapons.
On live the 100 uses only last 100 seconds or so(at the Master level). I know this situation might change after the CU, but I stopped using them because of having to replace the powerup every two minutes. Too much trouble.
I can see that in its current form, it will have a chilling effect for Artisans since it's not going to be something that players want. We also lost the ability to craft bone armor in the CU. Like a previous post said, having Master Artisan is barely worth it now except for the vehicles.
Message Edited by Wyeth-SB on 04-07-2005 11:22 AM
johnautry613 wrote:
Helios_SOE wrote:
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
This idea has a problem with it.
Imaginary example weapon:
AVG damage 100, Speed 3.
DPS: 33.3
Put a power up on it, that, as you show, gives a balance between speed and damage. so -20% speed and + 20 % damage:
AVG damage 120, speed 3.6
DPS 33.3
Fire the weapon as many times as you can in say 120 seconds, 2 minutes.
120/3 = 40 shots. 40 * 100 = 4,000 damage caused.
120/3.6 = 33.3 Shots. 33.3 * 120 = 4,000 damage caused.
In ANY long run trial with a power up that treats itself as a pure balance between speed and efficency, then there is no point in using the power up. It would be a complete waste of yuour time and money.
Accuracy is not a factor. In both examples, you would miss the same average amount of times, so the Average damage caused at any point on a time line is statistically the same.
You forget that there is another stat you can experiment on. my damage power ups i have been creating have been 24.56% damage and 17.01% speed so with your example:
Gun
-
100 damage -
3 speed
Power Up
-
+25% damage -
+17% speed
Gun + Power Up
-
125 damage -
3.5 speed
120/3 = 40 shots. 40*100=4,000 damage caused
120/3.5 = 34.3 shots. 34.3*125=4,287.5 damage caused
- Rebel Pilot 4/4/4/3OK I'm all for balance, but this is insane. Why not just create a single weapon called "Weapon" and give it to everyone and be done with it. Then no one will ever get an advantage and the game will die a nice slow death as everyone gets bored. Look I don't mean to be an ass here but it just seems with all the trade offs between stats, it won't matter much what you do after the CU, you're never going to be able to improve your equipment.
Helios_SOE wrote:
That's not altogether the case. It does, like you said, equalize the potential DPS of the weapon. Depending on how often you are likely to hit your target, however, you may want a faster firing weapon. In other words, if you tend to miss alot you would want to fire more often thus giving you more opportunities to land a hit (statistically speaking). This is not to say the numbers (or the resources) on the powerups don't need to be adjusted (they do), but that they were designed with more or less equal tradeoffs in mind.
We need to balance our weapons by the full potential of a weapon's power (including crafting, slicing & powerups). In tandem with that effort, we are also trying to make sure that you don't absolutely need a slice or powerup (or both) to use your weapon effectively. Not to say that these things won't give you an overall edge in combat (because they should), but they can't be "make-or-break" portions of the weapon. This is why you won't see a "free" 30% dmg increase on a powerup any more.
All of that being said, I look forward to your ideas. We will most likely not be making sweeping changes to how the powerups work, but if you have some good ideas (with supporting arguments) as to how the system might be tweaked without breaking weapon balance, I'll be happy to listen to them.
Animi wrote:
So not only is my suspicion confirmed that the reduction in speed cancels out the increase in damage, but your tests show that it actually MAKES THE DPS WORSE.
That's why you shouldn't make speed and damage opposing pairs. Same thing happens on someshipwright components (shields, etc.).
actually it is a good reason to.
- If you want to front load attacks then the increased damage is great.
- Also the speed equations are changing so that at certain levels speed increases give a more limited return so once you hit that level the dps would be more effected by a speed vs damage mod.
It adds tactical options - do I want to do more damage and hopefully hit hard my first shot? or do I want to maybe have better accuracy ? or maybe speed is more important as I get off more shots which means if I miss I still have a higher dps in the long run.