Artisan Archive
Thread: Why Harvester Cert's can never happen...
I think what needs to happen at this point is clearly define the root problem.
From what I read it is that a lot of artisans are mad because they cannot make a lot of money from a basic profession.
Fundamentally when miner was removed because it was deemed boring and since it was it would stangle resource flow the ability to run an automated harvester was given to everyone. So everyone was given a skill.
Now what true root problem is causing the Artisan community to call themselves the "miners" of the galaxy.
Is it money issues?
My guess it is.
That can be solved in several ways.
Sell your survey skills, get the devs to get you better things to craft, be available to sell the joint components that WS and architect need.
But remember its a basic profession and not designed to be a huge money maker.
Also like I pointed out in previous posts the majority of the mining is being done by elite crafters. You need to ask yourselves "Why are they mining their own resource". Approach it from that standpoint. I can definitely tell you this if you remove their reason to mine the elite crafters would rather spend their time on content and crafting and not mining. If you solve that the problem will take care of itself
Me personally I have a MA alt and I think this is bad. But my main being a Master Doctor I would gladly stop wasting time on mining but it is not possible because of the prices that are being set by the resouce vendors and lack of resource.
Scoooter wrote:
From what I read it is that a lot of artisans are mad because they cannot make a lot of money from a basic profession.
Fundamentally when miner was removed because it was deemed boring and since it was it would stangle resource flow the ability to run an automated harvester was given to everyone. So everyone was given a skill.
Is it money issues?
My guess it is.
That can be solved in several ways.
Sell your survey skills, get the devs to get you better things to craft, be available to sell the joint components that WS and architect need.
But remember its a basic profession and not designed to be a huge money maker.
Bugbait wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
From what I read it is that a lot of artisans are mad because they cannot make a lot of money from a basic profession.
Fundamentally when miner was removed because it was deemed boring and since it was it would stangle resource flow the ability to run an automated harvester was given to everyone. So everyone was given a skill.
Is it money issues?
My guess it is.
That can be solved in several ways.
Sell your survey skills, get the devs to get you better things to craft, be available to sell the joint components that WS and architect need.
But remember its a basic profession and not designed to be a huge money maker.
Why do the anti-harvester certification people always, ALWAYS go back to the "it's about money" argument? Very few of the pro-certification people care about the money making aspect. Almost none of the pro-certification arguments from those with logical, well laid out arguments have/had to do with Artisans and how much money they could make. I can't stress this enough or make it any clearer. It's been said so many times it's ridiculous.
Yes, Artisan is a basic profession. Yes, it's not meant to be a source of vast money making potential especially when compared to elite crafting professions.
If you still think it's about more money for Artisans then there's nothing more I can say.
It was nice that you took out the part of my quote that challenged you to get to the root problem and define it along with a challenge to determine "why" elite crafters mine and come up with an answer that will make them not to mine.
Well it keeps coming back to money because it is so obvious what the real intentions of most pro-cert perople are. Now you may not be one of them, and if it appears that my comments assert tyhe motivations of absolutely every pro-cert person that is not my intent.
When you see your resources not being mined in the quantity you need and when the happen to be they are sold at a 600% to 1000% profit at the very least actions speak louder than words. That happens today with the ability of everyone to harvest. So it is pretty clear why most are skeptical that limiting the harvesting going on is going to fox that problem.
Also the arguments and economic dribble coming out are not good arguments. The economic arguments are moot on each side. There are no numbers from SOE to allow for a proper analysis and we can speculate both sides until we are blue in the face.
The argument that this is a skill based game and should require a skill. With the elimination of the miner profession the devs deemed it mecessary to give everyone a skill/ability. Yes it is a skill and averyone has it, now the pro-cert people want to change that.
Well it is clear you do not choose to look at the root issue and clearly define it
It is clear form all the posts and polls the community is overwhelmingly against certs
It is clear you do not want to take the challenge and come up with a different solution to the root cause of the problem
It is clear you do not wish to take a different approach on solving why elite crafters mine. Solving that would make this fix itself and probably be embraced.
:::: Notices horse on the ground :::::
:::: Pulls out his Gaffi stick ::::
WHACK!
::::: Suspiciously eyes for any movement - slowly walks away :::::
::::: From the corner of his eye, he keeps watching :::::
::::: The horse twitches ::::
WHACK! WHACK! WHACK! WHACK!
~~~~~~~~~~~
The issue is dead. It's been asked and answered by the Devsand its not going to happen. Let the poor horserest inpeace already.
Bugbait wrote:
Scoooter wrote:
It was nice that you took out the part of my quote that challenged you to get to the root problem and define it along with a challenge to determine "why" elite crafters mine and come up with an answer that will make them not to mine.
Well it keeps coming back to money because it is so obvious what the real intentions of most pro-cert perople are. Now you may not be one of them, and if it appears that my comments assert tyhe motivations of absolutely every pro-cert person that is not my intent.
When you see your resources not being mined in the quantity you need and when the happen to be they are sold at a 600% to 1000% profit at the very least actions speak louder than words. That happens today with the ability of everyone to harvest. So it is pretty clear why most are skeptical that limiting the harvesting going on is going to fox that problem.
Also the arguments and economic dribble coming out are not good arguments. The economic arguments are moot on each side. There are no numbers from SOE to allow for a proper analysis and we can speculate both sides until we are blue in the face.
The argument that this is a skill based game and should require a skill. With the elimination of the miner profession the devs deemed it mecessary to give everyone a skill/ability. Yes it is a skill and averyone has it, now the pro-cert people want to change that.
Well it is clear you do not choose to look at the root issue and clearly define it
It is clear form all the posts and polls the community is overwhelmingly against certs
It is clear you do not want to take the challenge and come up with a different solution to the root cause of the problem
It is clear you do not wish to take a different approach on solving why elite crafters mine. Solving that would make this fix itself and probably be embraced.
Defence stacking wasperfectly valid but they changed that. Combat based on how quickly you can spam specials is the current way but they might change that too. Krayts used to have 32k HAM but they changed that. There's a hugelist of exampleswhere the Dev'swent wrong so the status quo and "legacy" arguments are also worthless.
Well defense stacking to the degree that it was is a different subject. It was never the dev's intent to have them stack so darned high. From the rmoval of the miner class because it would be boring and strangle resource it is clear that it is not the dev intent to limit resource, resouce quality they do limit. Are they wrong?The Majorityof the community does not think so.
Of course the majority are against certifications since they view it as anerf. Certifying harvesters makes them "weaker". Perceived nerfs are always unpopular with those that are affected by it. Since everyone can currently use any harvester they like it's a nerf that affects a vast majority of people. If we remove bias then the fact that the majority oppose certificationsshould also be moot.
Well its not a percieved nerf until facts can be shown that it wouldnot and this is thread is full of speculation. And no the economic aspects are not null and void. We have past actions to base some of that on. The speculation on the effect after certifications is what is speculation. Today we all see the affects, just from different sides.
Don't want to take the challenge? If we dismiss all economic theory and we don't have numbers there's no way to prove or justify a suspected root cause. There's no way to justifyany changes givenyour constraints so why bother?
Well see if you can get the numbers, we that are agains certifications have past actions to base our clains on. That is why my challene was for you to look "outside the box" in a different perspective and determine the real reason elite crafters feel they need to mine and see what you can think of. If you solve that you will probably get community backing and certs would probably be a moot point. Now if that's too tough of a constraint them just maybe there iscomething flawed in certs.
How about you come up with a counter proposal then? Yourefuse to entertain the notion of certifications. What do you propose instead or are you arguing that the current situation is fine as is?
Well I see no issue with the way things are so I am sorry it is you that wants to make a major change to the game environment (the way crafters do things) so coming up with a newer proposal that is acceptable to the crafting community as a whole is not really my job.
What the previous posted pointed out is true, the issue is really dead again until someone brings it up again in two months lol
What I would reccomend is making a very clear definition of the problem, determine why the problem is occuring and approach solving the root issue from a different angle that would be palatable to the crafting community as a whole.
Just to clarify I have an open mind, if a proposal was made to do certifications and the argument was fact based and it was clear that it will help the game I would be for them.
I just don't see any legitimate facts that show it would help the game based on the past actions of resource vendors. I also see no one here addressing the issues that the other elite crafting professions that would make any of them want certifications.
I am for any change that will benefit the game, I just don't see vthe facts here and the issues addressed. Why else would I challenge you to take the root problem and come at it from a different p[erspective and also clearly define it.
Message Edited by Scoooter on 06-03-2004 01:50 PM
This simply reinforces lot trading. It will reduce harvesting greatly for the casual crafter and will give all the more reason for the hardcore crafter to engage in massive lot trading.
The real "problem" I believe is simply that it is, in actuality, so easy to get access to harvester lots. Everyone has them. They can place harvesters once, admin someone else, and then never think about them again. It is very common practice for non-crafters to just rent out their excess lots to the budding resource empires.
This points out that the problem is the overall in-game "cheapness" of harvester lots. Attaching skill points to harvesters, while certainly a nerf, prevents any person from supplying lots to another player and requires the relatively expensive cost of actual character investment through skillpoints. Solutions to this problem could go any number of ways, such as simply removing the ability to admin people on your harvesters, reducing resource spawns (which will cripple casual crafters and reinforce the need to lot trade), creating a miner profession and revoking harvester rights, putting harvester rights into the crafting trees themselves, etc.
NONE of these things are going to be widely popular. They all hit people and hit people hard. Dancers and the like rely on incomes from lot trades. Crafters currently expect to be able to tap 50+ resources on demand to get resources (and in so doing rack up supplies that will last them months or years to come). Reducing overall resource spawns without any other changes will nerf casual crafters heavily but will still be circumventable.
If we want a restriction it will come in the form of one nerf or another. The decision then becomes: is this particular nerf to an individual worth it to balance the overall system? Also we need to ask: is this particular nerf actually achieving what we need? I think at some level we have to find some or another solution where the answers are "yes". I'm not going to tell you which one though.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 06-03-2004 04:03 PM
Gabriel,
First let me say I am completely against cross server lot swapping. The only thing harvester certs would stop isin server lot trades. Cross servers wouldstill be viable, but takle a day while that person grinds to survey 4(very easy). WHile people on your server will not want to waster the sp on it.
What is wrong with in-server lots swaps? Why can someone who is not using their lots trade them to someone else for cash(Must have a decent activity record for atleast 2 months to prevent cross-server trades)?
Not to metion that being a master arch I could not even dream about harvesting the resources I need for stocking a vendor using only 6 gens(2 for house 2 for factory). On top of that I require massive amounts of ore which rarely spawns in concentrations above 50%. I realize arch requires the most resources out of all the elite crafters, but we also have almost no named resources(which IMO would be hurt more by this)
You have not addressed the diminished amount of resources andthe inevitable price gouging. The end result being that only these already "famous" crafters would be able to afford. THe result being that crafting would become even more of a hard core proffession as any newbie could not afford to get started in it let alone master. Even if their are people who would not price gouge for every one of them there would be 10 charging 5x, and since these few honest players can not supply the entire server people would be forced to buy the expensive resources encouraging even more price gouging. I am sorry but greed is in human nature.
Message Edited by MarcoRenaldi on 06-03-2004 02:00 PM
Looking specifically at the act, nothing at all is wrong with it. The problem is the global result with resource gluts that flood the market and drive down the prices of crafted goods and driving out potential "jobs" in the crafting market.
Not to metion that being a master arch I could not even dream about harvesting the resources I need for stocking a vendor using only 6 gens(2 for house 2 for factory).
Well perhaps some sugar could be mixed with the medicine, i.e. special lots just for harvesters above the default 10? Also it is important to realize that you are reacting due to the status of the market now. If things were changed the market would change as well. Prices would go up for crafted goods as they would be more difficult to supply. Thus you could make better profits off of fewer sales.
You have not addressed the diminished amount of resources andthe inevitable price gouging. The end result being that only these already "famous" crafters would be able to afford.
Yes I have. Diminished resources are not necessarily a problem, in fact they are quite possibly a boon for the more casual crafter. If for example no one was able to trade in-server lots then the 10 lots that one crafter has alone is much more competitive with the bigtime crafter. It is the bigtime crafter that is going to lose his 400+ harvesters. Prices aren't being gouged if they reflect the true value of the resource. If you are paying 5cpu for a resource and then sell your goods for 15cpu then you're making more money per sale than you would if you bought resources at 3cpu and sold for 9cpu. As I've been stressing you have to look beyond immediate effects -- not only do resource prices go up but so do prices for crafted goods. In general value shifts from mission-generated credits to harvesting-generated goods.
any newbie could not afford to get started in it let alone master
A newbie doesn't need to buy resources to master. Newbies already tend to craft their own resources anyway as handmade ber4 personals are very efficient. If anything I think newbies would benefit! What is a good way for a newbie crafter to make money? Harvesting extra resources and selling them. Is a newbie better off selling his harvested resources for 2cpu or 5cpu? That's right, the latter. Increased resource prices are pretty much an all-around win for the newbie.
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 06-03-2004 07:53 PM
I have said on many occasions that this topic should have been brought up early on when the economy was still crawling. Now it is sprinting and you all want to tie a rope across the trail.
StGabriel wrote:
What is wrong with in-server lots swaps? Why can someone who is not using their lots trade them to someone else for cash(Must have a decent activity record for atleast 2 months to prevent cross-server trades)?
Looking specifically at the act, nothing at all is wrong with it. The problem is the global result with resource gluts that flood the market and drive down the prices of crafted goods and driving out potential "jobs" in the crafting market.
Not to metion that being a master arch I could not even dream about harvesting the resources I need for stocking a vendor using only 6 gens(2 for house 2 for factory).
Well perhaps some sugar could be mixed with the medicine, i.e. special lots just for harvesters above the default 10? Also it is important to realize that you are reacting due to the status of the market now. If things were changed the market would change as well. Prices would go up for crafted goods as they would be more difficult to supply. Thus you could make better profits off of fewer sales.
What about the noob marksman who cant afford anything other than a CDEF?Unfortunatle you are only looking with tunnel vision. The effect to the entire population would be drastic. As simple things like houses would cost 50k. Yes this may be good for the new crafters, but in the end it would hurt everybody. Just think you would never be able to become overly successful due ot only being able to make one decent sized run of master items a month.WHich due to supply and demand would drive up prices even more. Now this sounds good more money for crafters, but the higher the prices go the more people wont be able to afford them. When people cant buy what they want they get frustrated the more frustrated they get the more that quit. AS more and more quit the demand for crafters diminishes. THis cenario may eventually balance out but after losing a lot of players. THis is also assuming worse case scenario.
You have not addressed the diminished amount of resources andthe inevitable price gouging. The end result being that only these already "famous" crafters would be able to afford.
Yes I have. Diminished resources are not necessarily a problem, in fact they are quite possibly a boon for the more casual crafter. If for example no one was able to trade in-server lots then the 10 lots that one crafter has alone is much more competitive with the bigtime crafter. It is the bigtime crafter that is going to lose his 400+ harvesters. Prices aren't being gouged if they reflect the true value of the resource. If you are paying 5cpu for a resource and then sell your goods for 15cpu then you're making more money per sale than you would if you bought resources at 3cpu and sold for 9cpu. As I've been stressing you have to look beyond immediate effects -- not only do resource prices go up but so do prices for crafted goods. In general value shifts from mission-generated credits to harvesting-generated goods.
What about those big time crafters? They have put the time, energy, cash, and resources into becoming big why should we punish them for becoming successful? Even if you cut off their harvester fields they are still going ot be kings. SImply put they have stockpiles and cash to buy more resources to ocntinue production at a nowincreased profit. Since they already have name recognition they would still easily crush new crafters.
any newbie could not afford to get started in it let alone master
A newbie doesn't need to buy resources to master. Newbies already tend to craft their own resources anyway as handmade ber4 personals are very efficient. If anything I think newbies would benefit! What is a good way for a newbie crafter to make money? Harvesting extra resources and selling them. Is a newbie better off selling his harvested resources for 2cpu or 5cpu? That's right, the latter. Increased resource prices are pretty much an all-around win for the newbie.
Once again what about the non-crafter noobs? Who now pay 5x for basic items? The economy as is was built by the players using the current system. Any change as big as harvester certs would cause the system to collapse. Yes the economy would eventually balance out , but only after a period of complete turmoil and losing hundreds if not thousands of subscriptions.
StGabe.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 06-03-2004 07:53 PM
I addressed this a number of posts ago. Of course, yes, some people will be adversely affected by this. Newbie combat players though? I don't know. First of all 50k for a CDEF is never going to happen, we're talking more subtle effects here. Secondly, I just don't see newbie combatants as really being so badly off. It just isn't that hard to do missions and earn a good living. It is very difficult to earn a good living as a newer crafter and increasingly difficult to earn a good living as any sort of crafter. Meanwhile, high-level combatants can make 500k+ an hour doing high level missions.
It's just a matter of looking at the current system and evaluating where the values need to be assigned. Right now I look at high-end quality weapons be offered at the price of a mission or two and I think clearly something is wrong.
What about those big time crafters? They have put the time, energy, cash, and resources into becoming big why should we punish them for becoming successful?
It's not a matter of punishment, it's a matter of making a system that works, in general, for the larger populace. Of course some people are going to be hit. Those "big time" crafters are smart people though that will make good profits no matter what system you throw at them. More competition and more challenge will make the game more fun even if it hurts a few crafters bottom lines. Is it really so important to protect 100 million+ bank rolls at the expense of a balanced game?
Once again what about the non-crafter noobs? Who now pay 5x for basic items? The economy as is was built by the players using the current system. Any change as big as harvester certs would cause the system to collapse.
Again I think you are being overly dramatic. Any large change would of course create an initial upheaval but the economic systems would quickly level out. There would indeed be an increase in cost for newbie combatants but this would simply make a steeper more challenging early game. The system that is being protected is a system where a newbie can own top-end weapons on their first day of existence. In the long run that only cheapens the accomplishments of the game.
It's not about overall production and accumulated wealth as I pointed out above. The wealthiest system would be one where SOE handed out everything on demand. Yet clearly this would not be a very interesting game or very interesting economy.
Message Edited by MarcoRenaldi on 06-03-2004 08:26 PM
The purpose of these discussions is to discuss what possible changes might bring the system back into balance. I'm not sure harvester certification is really THE answer but the more our economies get out of whack, the more important it will be to find SOME answer.
And I think that in order to get there we're going to have to let go of some preconceived notions of how the economy MUST be. A challenging game is good. When players overcome intended challenges to such an extent that they are trivialized the only way to really reign things back in is going to be to nerf something. Public perception of nerfs is that they are always bad however if nothing is ever nerfed the game will inevitably slide into an increasingly unbalanced state. In a lot of ways I think the economic system has been "conquered" such that production is trivial and the market is no longer interesting. The devs job then is to reconstruct the system so as to put the challenge back in.
Look at prices on your server and consider, are they really so high? Does it really take a combat character very long to earn quality items? Deos this carry over for all items or only some (armor for example remains a relatively healthy market due to the much larger resource requirements and factory times, and so the armor market might be ok while other markets suffer)? Do dirt cheap items really make the game more fun or less so?
StGabe.