Artisan Archive
Thread: Why Harvester Cert's can never happen...
hoenixI agree
And in fact miner is difficult at best also
All crafters would be funneled through that profession for their fundamental needs to craft
All combat types are funneled through crafters for their basic needs.
Basically from a high level you have all professions being affected one or two levels deep with a single point of failure. Onle level deep (combat to crafters) is plenty.
Thank you for your input and posts StGabriel. You've demonstrated not only a firm understanding of economic theories but the ablity to apply them appropriately. Back to the ramblings of those that don't understand your arguments I guess. Good work though.
Refining: Each level allows the miner to manipulate the stats of a material when using a refinery (buildable by architects but certified for miners with this skill only). Anyone can mine crappy resources or be lucky at finding a good resource, but high level miners will always be able to produce top quality resources by refining them.
Harvester Efficiency (Modules?): Each level allows the miner to create harvester power-ups which increase extraction rates or give a single harvester the ability to mine more resources at the same time. Or simply improve the extraction rate of all harvesters the miner operates.
Advanced Surveying: Each level increses the information obtained by doing a survey such that the miner can know the quality of one or more attributes of the resource in the area without physically taking a sample. This makes the miner's job less arduous at finding resources.
Synthetic Materials: Each level gives the miner the ability to synthesize high quality artificial resources like lubricants and materials out of low quality resources. This will help turn the lower quality resources into something other than what's used to grind skills.
Master Miner: Ability to create droid advanced survey modules that will obtain more information from survey droids. Also increased ability in all of the trees.
Not only the above, but give Binary Load Lifters the ability to carry resources from a harvester to a refinery.
Scooter,
Would you please be a bit more specific regarding the threads in which you are quoting TH? Maybe you could find one or both of these threads, post a message to it, and then give me the name? Because your identification of the threads seems vague enough that I could look for the thread for half an hour and not find it assuming it exists. And I'm not saying it doesn't just that I'm new, wasn't around then, and would like to read it for myself.
Doctor and combat medic are certainly elite professions. No argument there. But I don't consider them to be elite CRAFTING professions because much of what they make cannot be used by most players unless they have specific medic-tree dependent skill sets. They seem to me to be crafters only in the sense that scouts and rangers are crafters...after all they can make camps and traps usable by folks with appropriate skills.
Seems to me that docs make enough money from buffs to get folks to gather resources for them. Assuming they don't just take artisan themselves to have access to surveying and whatever the devs decide fits in the surveying tree.
The notion of harvester certs is not just about cross-server lot swaps and the like. But they do have something to do with it.
joined42904 wrote:
Scooter,
Would you please be a bit more specific regarding the threads in which you are quoting TH? Maybe you could find one or both of these threads, post a message to it, and then give me the name? Because your identification of the threads seems vague enough that I could look for the thread for half an hour and not find it assuming it exists. And I'm not saying it doesn't just that I'm new, wasn't around then, and would like to read it for myself.
Doctor and combat medic are certainly elite professions. No argument there. But I don't consider them to be elite CRAFTING professions because much of what they make cannot be used by most players unless they have specific medic-tree dependent skill sets. They seem to me to be crafters only in the sense that scouts and rangers are crafters...after all they can make camps and traps usable by folks with appropriate skills.
Seems to me that docs make enough money from buffs to get folks to gather resources for them. Assuming they don't just take artisan themselves to have access to surveying and whatever the devs decide fits in the surveying tree.
The notion of harvester certs is not just about cross-server lot swaps and the like. But they do have something to do with it.
No I am not going to take the time to look for it, there ae just too many harvester cert threads to deal with. This keeps coming up and getting blasted.
Add yes Doctors are elite crafters. Everything a weaponsmith creates cannot be used by everyone. Doctors craft forMedics, CM's and BE's mostly and in fact Doctors have been the proponant to having the stim A be usable by all
And no doctors dont make enough money to purchase resource. I dont know about your server but the resource vendors on Valcy concentrate on the massive amounts of ore and metals for AS/WS/Architect. Those few that mine our resouce charge 5-10 cpu for garbage resource let alone anythng good.That is if they mine it in the first place. When you mine at 0.5 cpu or less with a BER 13 thats ridiculous. Basically doctors that dont mine or are not guilded to get help cant even afford to make buff packs because of the cost. Until you are am Master and can make good meds it is a very money poor profession.
There are just not enough Artisan only miners out there that mine for people, so I dont know who you think is going to take Miner. Most of the mining is being done by elite crafters with a very few resource vendors that have artisan only.
What needs to happen is a solution devised that is inclusive of all crafters.
Look at the poll thread that Guruweaver placed in this forum. Clearly all are against it except a vocal minority.
It is time to take the root cause, think out of the box and come up with a different solution.
joined42904 wrote:
Doctor and combat medic are certainly elite professions. No argument there. But I don't consider them to be elite CRAFTING professions because much of what they make cannot be used by most players unless they have specific medic-tree dependent skill sets. They seem to me to be crafters only in the sense that scouts and rangers are crafters...after all they can make camps and traps usable by folks with appropriate skills.
as a doctor actually i make a fair amount of money on stim b's, and wound pack b's usable by anyone with novice medic. these are elite crafting skills because to make them the best possible you do need the experimentation points from the doctor tree as well as the advanced components.
the same is true for smugglers..spice is used by everyone but requires sp's taken up in pistol skills, another hybrid crafting profession so to speak for whom losing sp's in artisan would nerf their ability to function in their chosen profession.
BE's also a hybrid profession, create pets that can be used by non-ch's..again lots of crafting there.
Seems to me that docs make enough money from buffs to get folks to gather resources for them. Assuming they don't just take artisan themselves to have access to surveying and whatever the devs decide fits in the surveying tree.
the return on buffing people is not nearly as high as you think..check in on the doctor forums. if you make your own enhance packs with resources you acquire yourself, you can make some money, not if you buy them or buy the resouces, the costs are just too great. again check in with the doctor forums..many doctors simply will not buff the public because of the time and effort versus returns and for added fun, the verbal abuse from customers this can bring.
in order to acquire these things on your own, you must have some artisan..that means limiting your combat skill potential and this is where a doctor can truly shine, but not if they are easily killed. sitting in front of the starport is profitable but not to the extreme you might think and certainly does not take advantage of all the possibilities the profession can offer. harvesting certifications as proposed kills doctors even more, personal harvesters simply will not supply them what they need and the costs are already too prohibitive to go to resource dealers and that assumes they have something like lokian wild wheat instead of lots of crappy steel.
The notion of harvester certs is not just about cross-server lot swaps and the like. But they do have something to do with it.
most cross-server lot swapping that i have seen is actually not with harvesters but with more static structures like factories and storage houses. in server lot swapping involves harvesters more often simply because they need to be moved fairly often. so if part of the goal is to limit cross-server lot trades, harvester certifications isn't going to cut into it that much.
I've been following this issue casually and piping in here and there but there is one thing I'd like to point out.
One of the main reasons I see from people who want a harvester cert is because combat toons can drop harvesters and they don't like that.
You guys are making it sound like every combat toon has 10 BER 13 heavies and they are sitting on millions upon millions of resources and that simply isn't true, it simply isn't true.
You need artisan to survey. Believe me you don't know how much of a luxury that is to a person that is tight on skill points. Try being a combat medic or a doc + an elite combat prof. The resource requirements for those professions is high but they have no surveying abilities and the devs will not give them any because it would infringe on your abilities (that is what they keep telling the medic communities)
Without going into economic theories etc let me just say that from the surface it's a bad idea for the simple fact being that the main reason you state you want them (combat toons dropping to many harvs) is not true.
Remember for the few combat oriented people that do this they either have to have novice artisan OR they have to have an artisan tell them where to drop the harvester. For some reason you all seem to keep forgetting that.
Message Edited by atimes on 06-02-2004 03:13 PM
atimes,
I think there are more combat toons dropping harvs than you might think. And quite a few cross-server lot exchanges.
I would love to see statistics regarding how many of the folks who drop harvesters have more than one box of artisan or even one box of artisan. I'd like to know. Because I think the problem is much deeper than you seem to want to acknowledge.
Scooter,
I would very much like to see your quote wherein you claim that Thunderheart WITH SPECIFICITY "shoots down" the idea of harvester certifications.
You have made a specific statement concerning one of the devs. Please substantiate your statement.
It was in one of the "questions aswered" threads and was reposted in yet a different hervester cert thread.
In fact in the next set of questions Guruweaver suggested we not send that question again and focus on something else.
joined42904 wrote:
atimes,
I think there are more combat toons dropping harvs than you might think. And quite a few cross-server lot exchanges.
I would love to see statistics regarding how many of the folks who drop harvesters have more than one box of artisan or even one box of artisan. I'd like to know. Because I think the problem is much deeper than you seem to want to acknowledge.
I would love statistics also.
I would also like to know how many that drop harvesters are also elite crafters including doctors and CM's.
Lots of doctors pay for waypoints and use harvesters to get their resource. Organic resouce is oftenoverlooked by the resouce vendors.
The statisics would in fact help everone to make an accurate assessment of the issue
IF artisans want harvester certs to stop cross server trades then implement something to stop them. Nerfing the bejesus out of some resource or power companies because of exploiters is not the way to go. Next thing you all will want is to strip cash away from everyone because a few people exploited or credit duped.
Why should those people or companies who have made a extremely successful busines through legitimate means be punished? or like wise those crafters who have the a good reputation and thus have the most business? Let me cite a example:
Some months ago I started a power company with only 4 solar gens. I marketed my power and hired several people to run harvesters for me. In the end from good business practice and word of mouth I had over 100 gens running and could not keep power on my vendor. Due to personal issues I was forced to quit suddenly and told all my hires that they could keep their gens as they had earned them. When I came back I decided to restart my business the problem being that only two people still had their gens. I had to make the rest. IN the two weeks I have been doing business I am already up to 45 gens that is from starting from scratch and dealing with the fallout from dissapearing so quickly. If I could overcome all thsoe obstacles so quickly and still be selling out with in 1 hour dont you think the market is good and has room for more??