Artisan Archive
Thread: Do you like your weakness in combat?
.I go on the occasional mission with my handy dandy Republic Blaster..... and you cant get much more Pure Crafter than i have been .... mind you i'm a little less now with novice politician...and we all know what good combatants Politicians are 
For my adventuring needs i have started another Toon on a different server and invited some friends to join me on occasion
Confusion12345 wrote:
Haruspex77, this may be a great shock to you but.....You can't have everything you want.
[snip]
-I don't think anyone is saying they LIKE their weakness in combat (which is solved by sacrificing a little crafting for combat), but it's logical that a crafter isn't going to be able to fight well, and they accept that (Sorry for the generalizing, but I'm pretty sure that's how most crafters feel :smileyhappy
Well, I easily could if they gave me a copy of the source code. There were many variations of LP-muds and Dicktu, that were opensource. That implemented many opinions. But here it is exactly a matter of what the developers decide.
If you don't like it, realize that it is not necessary for anyone's enjoyment, andsay that. The devs may change it.
Haruspex77 wrote:
Confusion12345 wrote:
Haruspex77, this may be a great shock to you but.....You can't have everything you want.
[snip]
-I don't think anyone is saying they LIKE their weakness in combat (which is solved by sacrificing a little crafting for combat), but it's logical that a crafter isn't going to be able to fight well, and they accept that (Sorry for the generalizing, but I'm pretty sure that's how most crafters feel :smileyhappy
Well, I easily could if they gave me a copy of the source code. There were many variations of LP-muds and Dicktu, that were opensource. That implemented many opinions. But here it is exactly a matter of what the developers decide.
If you don't like it, realize that it is not necessary for anyone's enjoyment, andsay that. The devs may change it.
So you are saying that artisans not having combat abilities is something the developers decide and that it is unnecessary for them not to have combat abilities? I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but if that is what you are saying, well....it just doesn't make sense
. Yeah, a medic can heal himself in combat, but he is a HEALER. A scout can kite better in combat, but he is a SCOUT, who has better knowledge of the land. What would a CRAFTER do? Is a crafter gonna make a banana peel to throw at the enemy's feet and knock the enemy down?
Confusion12345 wrote:
Haruspex77 wrote:
If you don't like it, realize that it is not necessary for anyone's enjoyment, andsay that. The devs may change it.
So you are saying that artisans not having combat abilities is something the developers decide and that it is unnecessary for them not to have combat abilities? I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but if that is what you are saying, well....it just doesn't make sense
Yes, it is exactly a developer decision. They control the way the game works by how they code the programs that drive it.
What a crafter would do in combat is to use the technical skills they developed in crafting to program and deploymore sophisticate combat droids than non-crafters could handle. During all those hours spent operating your crafting kit, you learned that as well as the new schematics, just like you got the ability to get a discount on the bazaar or put an entry fee on a building.
Now there are some limitations on what the devs can do an keep the game playable and fun. They cannot give big combat droids to characters that are already maxed out in combat ability. That would make their toughest mobs trivial to those characters, and make the game less fun.
But they can put those droids in the game and make them usable by crafters, since the skillpoints used in learning crafting keep you from having those other combat skills. They also want the game to "make sense" to most players, so iftoo many playerskeep saying thatcrafters knowing how to operate droidsdoesn't make sense, then they won't do that.
It is really up to you, as part of the community.
Haruspex77 wrote:
TheMalle wrote:
Since when have you've been talking only about droids? You wanted to give crafters combat abilities, you never mentioned any specific, except comparing to EQ where crafters could use anything they made. If you don't like your weakness in combat, do as everyone, get some combat skills. If that isn't enough, get a lvl 10 pet, it aint much, but it's a bit on the way.
I just have a question for you, if you got another50 skillpoints, would you still complain on that you can't get any combat skills when you are a pure crafter? I mean, there are more crafter skills to get, and from your typing I only get that you would get more crafting, since you want to be a 'pure' crafter (but having combat skills for free).
Sorry you missed the beginning of this, it was in regard to my manifiesto ( search should find it, ot look at older posts) that the elite artisan based professions should get the droid command skills described for a droid commander profession.
Well, sorry, didn't know that I had to read up from old posts, I thought you would be smart enough to post everything in the same thread.
Another 50 skillpoint would let me get enough chef to demonstrate the real value of their products. If that gave me no ability to play with my kids too, I would not be satisfied.
Eh?
My primary role is crafter, other things are entertainment.
Why shiuld I be denied that entertainment. I have certainly paid the dues for it.
What you pay for, is the ability to choose what to make your character. If you don't like it, choose something else instead of complaining (bar about bugs/exploits).
Why do you want to deny my character access to the combat featuers of the game?
I don't want to deny your character the combat features, I wan't you to realize that to be a fighter you can't spend all your points on crafting. If it is too hard for you to leave like 50 points for fighting professions you'll just have to realize that you won't be able to fight.
Haruspex77 wrote:
Confusion12345 wrote:
Haruspex77 wrote:
If you don't like it, realize that it is not necessary for anyone's enjoyment, andsay that. The devs may change it.
So you are saying that artisans not having combat abilities is something the developers decide and that it is unnecessary for them not to have combat abilities? I'm sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but if that is what you are saying, well....it just doesn't make sense
Yes, it is exactly a developer decision. They control the way the game works by how they code the programs that drive it.
What a crafter would do in combat is to use the technical skills they developed in crafting to program and deploymore sophisticate combat droids than non-crafters could handle. During all those hours spent operating your crafting kit, you learned that as well as the new schematics, just like you got the ability to get a discount on the bazaar or put an entry fee on a building.
I could agree on this, if it was something that would require skill to use. I can't see what kind of skill you would need to use a pre-programmed droid.
Now there are some limitations on what the devs can do an keep the game playable and fun. They cannot give big combat droids to characters that are already maxed out in combat ability. That would make their toughest mobs trivial to those characters, and make the game less fun.
But they can put those droids in the game and make them usable by crafters, since the skillpoints used in learning crafting keep you from having those other combat skills. They also want the game to "make sense" to most players, so iftoo many playerskeep saying thatcrafters knowing how to operate droidsdoesn't make sense, then they won't do that.
I will still repeat what I just said, what kind of skill would you need to use a pre-programmed droid? It won't disobey you like an animal, it will respond at the instant when you give the command (wether it be a voice command or if you'd have to use a remote control).
It is really up to you, as part of the community.
And, obviously, I am not a part of the community since you refuse to listen to me?
n : a creator of great skill in the manual arts; "the jewelry was made by internationally famous craftsmen" [syn: craftsman]
fighter
- One who fights, such as a soldier or boxer.
- A fast, maneuverable combat aircraft used to engage enemy aircraft.
- A pugnacious, unyielding, or determined person.
TheMalle wrote:
And, obviously, I am not a part of the community since you refuse to listen to me?
http://www.dictionary.com
crafter
n : a creator of great skill in the manual arts; "the jewelry was made by internationally famous craftsmen" [syn: craftsman]
fighter
- One who fights, such as a soldier or boxer.
- A fast, maneuverable combat aircraft used to engage enemy aircraft.
- A pugnacious, unyielding, or determined person.
I am listening, but you are mistaking the way a game works for real life. SWG is a computer game constrained only by the technical limitations of the computers and the decisions the developers make. The physics doesn't work the same as RL, nor do the skills or the way they are learned.
Don't mistake the surface gloss of the descriptions, names, and graphics for how things really work. Your appeal to a dictionary seems to imply that the SWG has to match that. Not even real life works that way, though in real life invalid definitions are eventually adjusted to be closer to reality the way we understand it. "The map is not the territory." By using words whose structure doesn't match SWG reality, you are just confusing yourself.
Besides which, your quote doesn't prove your point at all, as I regularly demonstrate definition 3 here while supporting my view of what crafters should be.
It is also true that the developers want to make the game satisfy the majority of the players, and to have it make sense to them. If enough others cling to your distorted view of "reality", they will leave this distortion in the game to fit it.
My reality is that choice of a profession shouldn't leave a player in a position where he has to abandon a beloved character to continue enjoying the game. And I count a major skill profile revision as abandonment as much as leaving him behind for another server or another account. This is fixable now, and the DE boards are considering compromises that might satisfy us both.
Message Edited by oliphontmon on 03-09-2004 06:18 PM
Some of the newer contributors to this thread seem to have missed the original context.
Currently, the devs have suspended their plans to release the (already designed) combat droids because no clear profession for the skill to operate them has been agreeable to the community. This is, to my mind, a disaster! There is an obvious place for them in the elite professions off Artisan, the most obvious being Droid Engineer. But the mindset reflected by my oposition in this thread is discouragingly common.
Recently, a compromise proposal has been developed in the DE forum. It is not completely to my satisfaction, but it is close enough, especially with the variant where MA is required for the combat droid control skill.
Please examine the discussion in that forum, and vote soon on the thread there.
I see plenty of fire in people's posts in this thread, both haruspexs' and malles'. Haruspex is not asking for uber combat abilities, and although I myself do not posess a pure crafting character, I can see his point.
Crafters, currently, only contribute to the game by creating a variety of items and there it pretty much, well ends. Since beginning to play SWG as a crafter I realised how difficult it actually is to move about with few combat skills/abilities, so I made sure I developed some marksman skills.
However, to actually get very far in crafting, or exploring the galaxy, or doing things with your friends, you NEED combat abilities. When looking for resources, Aggro NPC's can pop up right in front of you with NO warning, and if you are a pure crafting character, then you have no means of defending yourself. Thats just to play your profession as it was intended, why should you have your backside handed to you everytime that happens? Even against relatively low level mobs? From what I can see, Haruspex isn't looking for combat abilities to be just added to crafting professions, he's looking for a hybrid fighter/crafter class, which I see nothing wrong with. Combat Medic anyone? In todays military's combat engineers have as much of a place as combat medics.
Now I don't know about the idea of having elite crafters being a pre-requisite for using advanced combat droids if the droids are as you say pre-programmed, but I don't think with a slight application of suspension of disbeleif, its a big leap to make.
When you say that crafters should not have fighting ability, would you agree that fighters should not have any crafting ability? I think you would, yet all the benefits a crafting character can possess, producing wares and making a good profit from them is available to every combat template out there. Yes you're right when you say that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put a schematic and resources into an automated factory, but in real life it doesn't take a rocket scientist to fire one pistol when you know how to fire another. Take the whole weapon certification system, if I gave you a beretta and told you how to shoot it, would you actually need a greater skill level to fire a colt 1911? I think not.
Combat professions do have access to the majority of the content on the game by way of exploration of POI's defending themselves in harvester runs, the GCW PVP and PVE, they can also run a business in practically the same way as elite crafters. An elite crafter can run a business, and is basically stuck in his shop making items, or running survey or crafing missions with practically no combat ability. This does to me, seem to be a great matter of unbalance. Game content is grossly in favour of people with combat professions, with crafting being little more than an extremely repetetive point and click game.
"Then if you don't like crafting be a fighter" I hear you say? SWG is touted as a game with viable playable crafting professions, which it is, if you have an extremely small attention span, or an obsessive compulsive disorder. You've got to face it guys'n gals, after a short while, churning out items can get a little boring, and you shouldn't have to completely overhaul your character to even see a small part of the galaxy without having your backside handed to you.