Artisan Archive
Thread: Do you like your weakness in combat?
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Understanding seems to be in short supply on this thread. Lots of heated argument against my suggestions with little or no content, and often inaccurate reading of what others wrote. Gee, that sounds just like any on-line forum doesn't it.
I am really not sure where the heat really comes from. My assumption is that we all want the same thing: "For the game to be the most possible fun for all players."
My suggestions about adding some combat benefits to the (now combat useless) crafting skill boxes does not reduce anyone's fun.
It does notmake mobs harder, because it doesn't improve combat ability of any character above what he could get now by dropping some or all of his crafting skills.
It doesn't create some new "uber class", all it does is make the total wimps who have played crafters a long time less wimpy. While I have not been very specific about numbers, I would assume that the maximum combat ability a multiple master crafter could get would still be well down in the list of top combat combinations. Today, however, that character isn't even on that list, he is down with the 75-skillpoints-used newbies or worse.
It does make the game more fun for those who have mature crafting characters and are looking for more to do.
It does make the game more fun for Droid Engineers who would gain a lot of interested (and rich) customers.
It does increase everyone's sense of "star wars feel" by having more droids out an about the world, not just as NPCs in town.
Haruspex77 wrote:
Understanding seems to be in short supply on this thread. Lots of heated argument against my suggestions with little or no content, and often inaccurate reading of what others wrote. Gee, that sounds just like any on-line forum doesn't it.
There's plenty of content, you just refuse to acknowledge anybody that doesn't agree with you, which is rather childish.
I am really not sure where the heat really comes from. My assumption is that we all want the same thing: "For the game to be the most possible fun for all players."
If fighting is your idea of fun, then you have enough skillpoints to be a crafter and a fighter. What you want is to be able to invest all of your skillpoints in crafting yet still hang with the big boys in a fight. Wouldn't it bother you if a master bounty hunter with a side of pistoller or carbine who spent all his points on combat thought he should also be able to have 6 vendors and sell the weapons and armor he make while he's not fighting?
My suggestions about adding some combat benefits to the (now combat useless) crafting skill boxes does not reduce anyone's fun.
Who are you to say what would and wouldn't reduce anyone's fun? For some people making their character a singing purple dinosaur would be fun. Should we add that too?
It does notmake mobs harder, because it doesn't improve combat ability of any character above what he could get now by dropping some or all of his crafting skills.
It does trivialize lesser mobs. An absolutelypure crafter has to worry about a mutant womp rat attack while checking harvesters.A couple boxes of carbine or two handed swords (20 pts in combat can make a character 50 time tougher than a pure crafter) and you can defend yourself against most of the low level mobs on the starter planets. You don't have to master a combat profession to survive harvester runs, there's still plenty of points to master 3 crafting professions and have a little combat. Right now I'm a Master Artisan, Master Architect, Master Merchant, 1/0/1/0 Weaponsmith, 0/2/0/0 Brawler. And I still have 11 skillpoints left. I can defend myself out there against a scyk or mutant womp rat, and still craft like a pro.
It doesn't create some new "uber class", all it does is make the total wimps who have played crafters a long time less wimpy. While I have not been very specific about numbers, I would assume that the maximum combat ability a multiple master crafter could get would still be well down in the list of top combat combinations. Today, however, that character isn't even on that list, he is down with the 75-skillpoints-used newbies or worse.
The total wimps are only such because they choose to be that way. If somebody spends 250 skillpoints in crafting, that's their business. But then they can't complain when a kreetle eats you for lunch.
It does make the game more fun for those who have mature crafting characters and are looking for more to do.
What's wrong withgetting some combat skills if they want to fight? You're asking for something for nothing.
It does make the game more fun for Droid Engineers who would gain a lot of interested (and rich) customers.
A top of the line probot is no slouch. With medium armor and 40% resists, it can take quite a beating. Far more than any CL10 creature.
It does increase everyone's sense of "star wars feel" by having more droids out an about the world, not just as NPCs in town.
Wow, I just ran some numbers. A person could master two elite crafting professions with the same artisan prerequisites and still have enough to master any basic elite profession. You could be a
Master Armorsmith/Weaponsmith/Rifleman
Master Chef/Tailor/Fencer
Master Architect/Droid Engineer/Teras Kasi
The possibilities are out there, if you'd quit trying to get something for nothing.
BoberFett wrote:
I am really not sure where the heat really comes from. My assumption is that we all want the same thing: "For the game to be the most possible fun for all players."
If fighting is your idea of fun, then you have enough skillpoints to be a crafter and a fighter. What you want is to be able to invest all of your skillpoints in crafting yet still hang with the big boys in a fight. Wouldn't it bother you if a master bounty hunter with a side of pistoller or carbine who spent all his points on combat thought he should also be able to have 6 vendors and sell the weapons and armor he make while he's not fighting?
Don't just read "all players" as "me" in my statement. Hopefully, you want me and everyone else to have fun too. There are some players that like what their characters have become as crafters, and don't want to kill their current characters,strip that character's hard earned skills, play onanother server,or playanother account. However, they still want to enjoy parts of the game that they know are there with that character. For those players, adding some ability to do that would add to their fun.
I am not saying that there is no fun available to those players, but there are reasons why those alternatives may not be acceptable. You obviously are not one of those players, I am, and there are manyothers.
Actually, I have no problem with the idea that crafting skill points be completely separate from combat skill points. Some people have a lot more time than I do to put into the game, and it doesn't hurt my pride that they might invest that time to become both a crafter and fighter. Someone else's success doesn't damage my fun.
I have seen that done in other games (e.g. EQ), and the biggest problem was that you needed to be a high combat level character to get the raw materials for crafting and gaining crafting experience. Well, the crafting and skill gainsystem sucked too, but that is another issue. It was kind of cool that you had to be a high level crafter to have and wear some of the best items, since they could not be traded. A grandmaster's crafting trophy was a major status symbol, as well as usefull.
On a differen't note, though, the sad thing is that that bounty hunter could, today,be doing just what you said. He could well have mastered Merchant and kept his vendors after dropping the profession, an irritating thing to dedicated Merchants. And he can certainly run factories to make all the Weapons and Armour he wants, nobody is even trying to call that a bug. On top of that, he would have an easier time running his harvesters innasty places.
Now, I wouldn't think of nerfing those capabilities. There is nothing wrong with that except the terrible lack of useful Merchant skills, and the lack of anything in the other crafting professions to make you any better than a newbie in combat.
If we ever reached a situation where some combat character was really jealous of a crafter's abilities, and dropped valued combat skill to gain some, I would be amazed. The other way around is common.
I'm done trying to reason with an unreasonable person.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope you find your one-dimensional MMO game where everybody is exactly the same.
BoberFett wrote:
I'm done trying to reason with an unreasonable person.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope you find your one-dimensional MMO game where everybody is exactly the same.
I will be sorry to see you drop the thread, thanks for playing Val to my Ender. [edit: that should have been Demosthenes to my Locke for correctness, but the original sounds better]
Everybody exactly the same is what I am trying to avoid. Remember thatI'm the one that wants to see DE/ MA/Merchants goingalong on that big guild raid, not you.
Message Edited by Haruspex77 on 03-04-2004 11:50 PM
Haruspex77 wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
I am really not sure where the heat really comes from. My assumption is that we all want the same thing: "For the game to be the most possible fun for all players."
If fighting is your idea of fun, then you have enough skillpoints to be a crafter and a fighter. What you want is to be able to invest all of your skillpoints in crafting yet still hang with the big boys in a fight. Wouldn't it bother you if a master bounty hunter with a side of pistoller or carbine who spent all his points on combat thought he should also be able to have 6 vendors and sell the weapons and armor he make while he's not fighting?
Don't just read "all players" as "me" in my statement. Hopefully, you want me and everyone else to have fun too.
Haruspex77 wrote:
I am not saying that there is no fun available to those players, but there are reasons why those alternatives may not be acceptable. You obviously are not one of those players, I am, and there are manyothers.
Actually, I have no problem with the idea that crafting skill points be completely separate from combat skill points. Some people have a lot more time than I do to put into the game, and it doesn't hurt my pride that they might invest that time to become both a crafter and fighter. Someone else's success doesn't damage my fun.
If they don't find that acceptable, well, then they must be happy with what they are already doing, as they don't want to drop it. Or are they just incompatible of making decisions?
And then you say you have nothing against having combat and fighting completely seperated, as it is now, and yet you continue to argueagainst it?
Even if you have only a little time to play, you can be both a fighter and a crafter, why wouldn't you be able to? Of course, people that is online more, will have more time to do things, but that is quite obvious, no matter what profession.
Haruspex77 wrote:
I have seen that done in other games (e.g. EQ), and the biggest problem was that you needed to be a high combat level character to get the raw materials for crafting and gaining crafting experience. Well, the crafting and skill gainsystem sucked too, but that is another issue. It was kind of cool that you had to be a high level crafter to have and wear some of the best items, since they could not be traded. A grandmaster's crafting trophy was a major status symbol, as well as usefull.
Well, I won't be playing EQ if that is the case. Sure, you could need a fighter to get material from tough creatures, but to get other resources, i.e. minerals, there should be no need for fighting skills. Nor should there be any system so only crafters can wear their items. Of course, if you feel it is better that way, don't buy any armour, only use whatever you can make.
Haruspex77 wrote:
On a differen't note, though, the sad thing is that that bounty hunter could, today,be doing just what you said. He could well have mastered Merchant and kept his vendors after dropping the profession, an irritating thing to dedicated Merchants. And he can certainly run factories to make all the Weapons and Armour he wants, nobody is even trying to call that a bug. On top of that, he would have an easier time running his harvesters innasty places.
Well, the merchant issue is a hot topic at the merchants forum, and all of them that are keeping merchant seems to be on the opinion that if you drop merchant, you should loose the ability to run your vendors, and I agree with them: No skill = No benefit.
On the factory note, well, it's a g'damn automated factory, how much skill would you need to put in a schematic and resources? It's like a weapon, he can't create it, but he can use it, and the crafter decides the price.
For me, even without any combat skills, I hardly ever find anything that my swoop can't outride (how odd...), and sometimes I actually walk, just for the exictement that I might, I actually might, get killed. It's not like it does much if I do die, after all.
Haruspex77 wrote:
Now, I wouldn't think of nerfing those capabilities. There is nothing wrong with that except the terrible lack of useful Merchant skills, and the lack of anything in the other crafting professions to make you any better than a newbie in combat.
If we ever reached a situation where some combat character was really jealous of a crafter's abilities, and dropped valued combat skill to gain some, I would be amazed. The other way around is common.
So, is this really a cry out against merchants? If you only bothered to look through the merchant forum you would probably notice quite a few threads about the 'get merchant drop and keep vendors' problem, and I think it is in their "10 issues" list.
You don't have to be a merchant, I like it though. Having vendors on planetary ad increases my visitors very much.
The main thing I can see about people wanting to fight instead of craft, is that they like violence, maybe the grouping too. I on the other hand already dropped all my fighting skills (marksman 4-0-0-4. rifleman 1-0-1-0) to get more crafting skills, and merchant on another note.
If you so badly desire to kill things, there are a few options aviable to you;
1. Get another account
if you don't want to pay more money:
2. Create another character on another server, and make it a fighter.
If you want to play on the same server and not pay more money:
3. Drop some skills, there are actually a option, believe it or not, that makes you able to do so. And hear and be surprised, after dropping a skill, you can actually get a new skill, not just the skill you dropped!
Don't complain that there isn't any content ("Understanding seems to be in short supply on this thread. Lots of heated argument against my suggestions with little or no content, and often inaccurate reading of what others wrote. Gee, that sounds just like any on-line forum doesn't it.") or understanding. I understand that you don't wanna be a pure crafter, but don't wanna drop your skills, and then I provide you with options ofwhat you could do instead, and counter arguments why I don't wan't it to be like you say. It's a bit heated, since you, stubbornly, seem to be just refusing that we actually provide you with valid points and ways you could use.
If we got the ability to fight would the fighters then get the ability to craft?
TheMalle wrote:
If you so badly desire to kill things, there are a few options aviable to you;
1. Get another account
if you don't want to pay more money:
2. Create another character on another server, and make it a fighter.
If you want to play on the same server and not pay more money:
3. Drop some skills, there are actually a option, believe it or not, that makes you able to do so. And hear and be surprised, after dropping a skill, you can actually get a new skill, not just the skill you dropped!
Well I listed those options before, with only the comment that they might not be acceptable to everyone, proven by their not being acceptable to me. I didn't itemize why they don't work for me, because others might have different reasons for the same opinion, but perhaps you need a clue why reasonable people might not want to do these things.
One of the pleasures of a game like this is developing a persona for your characterthat is quite different than your own. What you want your character to be doesn't really depend on the mechanics of the game, just on your taste for what you might like to try being. SWG right now is very good at allowing that for a broad range of possibilities.
Since I have been playing since Beta, and started my current main character as soon as the pre-ordered disks arrived, I have had the time to develop him into just about what he would like to be. Sure, there is still a little churn of skills. He will drop Novice scout with publish 7 when he can recall a vehicle without a camp, which will allow him to show a Master Merchant title etc.. but most of the skillpoints are pretty much fixed. They aren't much driven by game mechanics, though like the Scout/MM tradeoff sometime the pressure of those mechanics are hard to resist.
On that same server, I have a couple of adult children playing who have even less play time than I do. About the time that main character's skill set was finished, I really noticed the combat disparity between my character and theirs. When a Novice pistoleer, only that novice box, groups with a CH/Rifleman, or even justa Rifleman with a bunch of filled boxes, he isn't contributing much. We can't go anyplace or fight anything that they can't really do just as well without me. I would like to be a significant part of that group, not just a tag along.
Now, none of those suggestions offer a way out.
1) Would imply playing a completly different character for combat. I suppose they could change their bios to reflect the new relationship [ My dad X raises his sword and shouts "I call the power" when he wants to fight, turning him into Y], but I don't like the idea. It reallyturns the persona I wanted into just a craftingmule, played only for money and objects. Paying for a second account for that adds insult to injury.
2) Would imply we all had to start over to do combat on another server, and abandons the developed persona. The character I wanted to be becomes an evenless useful mule that gets much less attention. This is worse than 1.
3) Trashes my character's persona for game mechanics, something I have been fighting since I ran out of skillpoints and easily sacrificed skillsafter the first few months. Taken too far, it is worse than 2, since you don't even have the mule left.
4) You left off your list the "delete your character and start a new one" option. Was it too harsh for evenyou? (3) is about the same, but you can't change your name, sexand race to better fit the new character.
The idea is to be able to continue to play a character with most or all of the skillpoints in crafting areas without having that character badly gimped in comparison to reasonably well developed characters with "mainstream" skills. SWG really is a combat oriented game, even though it has crafting features that allow very satisfying play for a new player. But the way things are set up today, the crafter's game runs out of steam long before the combat player's. I believe that there are a lot of players who would like that fixed.
Solving that problem doesn't damage anyone else's enjoyment of the game. If you do like your weakness in combat, don't call a combat droid. If you are not a crafter, you will just find some new players to group with who are not too weak to be of help. Their existance won't make the game harder. And if you are a crafter who is interested, and successfull enough to afford one, you can buy a combat droid and explore new options in the game.
Are you being paid by Sony to force people to buy more accounts? It is a strategy on their part that, if they did intentionally, would be on a par with bait & switch advertising (which they seem to be threatening to make common in SWG with the advertising droid).
Haruspex77 wrote:
TheMalle wrote:
If you so badly desire to kill things, there are a few options aviable to you;
1. Get another account
if you don't want to pay more money:
2. Create another character on another server, and make it a fighter.
If you want to play on the same server and not pay more money:
3. Drop some skills, there are actually a option, believe it or not, that makes you able to do so. And hear and be surprised, after dropping a skill, you can actually get a new skill, not just the skill you dropped!
Well I listed those options before, with only the comment that they might not be acceptable to everyone, proven by their not being acceptable to me. I didn't itemize why they don't work for me, because others might have different reasons for the same opinion, but perhaps you need a clue why reasonable people might not want to do these things.
One of the pleasures of a game like this is developing a persona for your characterthat is quite different than your own. What you want your character to be doesn't really depend on the mechanics of the game, just on your taste for what you might like to try being. SWG right now is very good at allowing that for a broad range of possibilities.
You agree that it is good on allowing the broad range, but yet you complain that you can't do enough?
Since I have been playing since Beta, and started my current main character as soon as the pre-ordered disks arrived, I have had the time to develop him into just about what he would like to be. Sure, there is still a little churn of skills. He will drop Novice scout with publish 7 when he can recall a vehicle without a camp, which will allow him to show a Master Merchant title etc.. but most of the skillpoints are pretty much fixed. They aren't much driven by game mechanics, though like the Scout/MM tradeoff sometime the pressure of those mechanics are hard to resist.
On that same server, I have a couple of adult children playing who have even less play time than I do. About the time that main character's skill set was finished, I really noticed the combat disparity between my character and theirs. When a Novice pistoleer, only that novice box, groups with a CH/Rifleman, or even justa Rifleman with a bunch of filled boxes, he isn't contributing much. We can't go anyplace or fight anything that they can't really do just as well without me. I would like to be a significant part of that group, not just a tag along.
Then, you will have to spend as many points as they do in combat, it's called equality
Now, none of those suggestions offer a way out.
1) Would imply playing a completly different character for combat. I suppose they could change their bios to reflect the new relationship [ My dad X raises his sword and shouts "I call the power" when he wants to fight, turning him into Y], but I don't like the idea. It reallyturns the persona I wanted into just a craftingmule, played only for money and objects. Paying for a second account for that adds insult to injury.
2) Would imply we all had to start over to do combat on another server, and abandons the developed persona. The character I wanted to be becomes an evenless useful mule that gets much less attention. This is worse than 1.
3) Trashes my character's persona for game mechanics, something I have been fighting since I ran out of skillpoints and easily sacrificed skillsafter the first few months. Taken too far, it is worse than 2, since you don't even have the mule left.
4) You left off your list the "delete your character and start a new one" option. Was it too harsh for evenyou? (3) is about the same, but you can't change your name, sexand race to better fit the new character.
TBH, I forgot about #4, since I don't care if my specie is less or more good at a profession, there isn't really any big differences that I have experienced, and therefor I would just use my character I had.
To me, it seems like you have a hard time choosing. You have a wide variety that you can choose of, mastering up to 3 professions and dabbling in a fourth.
A crafter does not need to be a pure crafter, and if you want it to be a pure crafter, it shouldn't have any combat skills, thus making it a pure crafter.
The idea is to be able to continue to play a character with most or all of the skillpoints in crafting areas without having that character badly gimped in comparison to reasonably well developed characters with "mainstream" skills. SWG really is a combat oriented game, even though it has crafting features that allow very satisfying play for a new player. But the way things are set up today, the crafter's game runs out of steam long before the combat player's. I believe that there are a lot of players who would like that fixed.
So, technically, you want to be able to fight as well as the people who spent many points in fighting? Seems a bit unfair. If you want to fight, do as everyone else, and spend some skillpoints in fighting. If you think a crafter is not fun anymore (which is what I get from "the crafter's game runs out of steam long before the combat player's"), then don't play a crafter, change to a fighter.
Solving that problem doesn't damage anyone else's enjoyment of the game. If you do like your weakness in combat, don't call a combat droid. If you are not a crafter, you will just find some new players to group with who are not too weak to be of help. Their existance won't make the game harder. And if you are a crafter who is interested, and successfull enough to afford one, you can buy a combat droid and explore new options in the game.
Since when have you've been talking only about droids? You wanted to give crafters combat abilities, you never mentioned any specific, except comparing to EQ where crafters could use anything they made. If you don't like your weakness in combat, do as everyone, get some combat skills. If that isn't enough, get a lvl 10 pet, it aint much, but it's a bit on the way.
Are you being paid by Sony to force people to buy more accounts? It is a strategy on their part that, if they did intentionally, would be on a par with bait & switch advertising (which they seem to be threatening to make common in SWG with the advertising droid).
No, a bit paranoid, are you?I am working forno oneor nothing butsommon sense itself;to drive sense intopeople that are trying to change the game instead of changing themself, and play the game as everyone else can. A few skillpoints aint much.
I just have a question for you, if you got another50 skillpoints, would you still complain on that you can't get any combat skills when you are a pure crafter? I mean, there are more crafter skills to get, and from your typing I only get that you would get more crafting, since you want to be a 'pure' crafter (but having combat skills for free).