Artisan Archive
Thread: WOW! Publish 23-Major Crafting Changes in store
Dimear
Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:51 pm
#27
Apparently they changes this a bit on the test center recently. I think it's now a 2% resource buff for Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, and the other crafters they consider real crafters. I think it's 1% for artisans, and 0% for the crafting professions that they don't like to consider crafting professions - smuggler, jedi, scout, etc.
This is still 2% too high. Changing the stats on resources to meld them all up towards the top end only does 1 thing - it limits the variety of crafted items. Instead of mid-level crafters crafting very good stuff, and elite crafters crafting great stuff, everyone will now be crafting perfect stuff. No variation at all.
Right now, it's almost impossible to find a +15.00 tool on my server. The only ones that exist are leftovers from the magical crafting day. After they squeeze out this patch, then anything less than +15.00 will be considered worthless. Anyone can go harvest whatever metal is spanwed at CD=981 or higher, and craft a perfect tool. Same with AV-21's, and most of the other items that artisans craft. The highest quality vehicles on my server are currently 97-99% (except for 1 on the server that came out 100%). Now anything less than 100% won't sell. Even though the extra few % don't matter for a vehicle, there will be such a flood of 100% stuff that anything less will be considered worthless.
It's rediculous for a new artisan using good (but not amazing) resources to craft the same quality item as a master with a crafting suit, force sensitive skills, and the best resources on the server. This resource buff only blends everything into sameness...
This is still 2% too high. Changing the stats on resources to meld them all up towards the top end only does 1 thing - it limits the variety of crafted items. Instead of mid-level crafters crafting very good stuff, and elite crafters crafting great stuff, everyone will now be crafting perfect stuff. No variation at all.
Right now, it's almost impossible to find a +15.00 tool on my server. The only ones that exist are leftovers from the magical crafting day. After they squeeze out this patch, then anything less than +15.00 will be considered worthless. Anyone can go harvest whatever metal is spanwed at CD=981 or higher, and craft a perfect tool. Same with AV-21's, and most of the other items that artisans craft. The highest quality vehicles on my server are currently 97-99% (except for 1 on the server that came out 100%). Now anything less than 100% won't sell. Even though the extra few % don't matter for a vehicle, there will be such a flood of 100% stuff that anything less will be considered worthless.
It's rediculous for a new artisan using good (but not amazing) resources to craft the same quality item as a master with a crafting suit, force sensitive skills, and the best resources on the server. This resource buff only blends everything into sameness...
CenoKreFey
Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:27 am
#28
I have been playing since day 5 and findingbetter and interesting ways of making new products has been the staple of SWG crafting. Its why I craft. I've raised the bar for crafting station effectiveness several times on my server. I DO NOT feel a new player who hasn't spent even 20 minutes calculating stat formulas or perusing SWGcraft for the best combo of resources should be able to come in, buy 3cpu crap, and match all my hard work.Even a 1% bonus would easily put crafting stations at 45.00 on my server and instantly ruin 2 years of resource saving and testing.
We need to make sure SOE knows our feelings on this! Do not tamper with this system! They must realize if they lose crafters, entire servers will die! And after the CU screwing (former armorsmith), our tolerance is nonexistant.
![Iron City, Corellia [Gorath]](http://www.jedisanctum.com/swgpics/IronCity1300x1300.png){kind=link}
Roycroft
Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:55 pm
#29
CenoKreFey wrote:
I have been playing since day 5 and findingbetter and interesting ways of making new products has been the staple of SWG crafting. Its why I craft. I've raised the bar for crafting station effectiveness several times on my server. I DO NOT feel a new player who hasn't spent even 20 minutes calculating stat formulas or perusing SWGcraft for the best combo of resources should be able to come in, buy 3cpu crap, and match all my hard work.Even a 1% bonus would easily put crafting stations at 45.00 on my server and instantly ruin 2 years of resource saving and testing.
We need to make sure SOE knows our feelings on this! Do not tamper with this system! They must realize if they lose crafters, entire servers will die! And after the CU screwing (former armorsmith), our tolerance is nonexistant.
Never done this before but....QFE.
1 or 2% is too much.
They need to remove it completely. They are toying with a core component of the crafting system that's been in since day oneand it will have a staggering impact on every crafter in the game.
It seems they are listening...I hope they hear the mass discontent with the thought of ruining years of work by their most loyal crafters/merchants. I'm not even in that group. I came back and commited to the game as a crafter because of thelong term challenge it offer(ed).I don't have stockpilesof the uber resources...I don't want an easy"I win" button. I want the satifaction of succeeding in the what once was a challenging and complex virtual economy.
Again, it's the journey...not the destination, that keeps people playing. I hope the devs can see this and take out the resource buff completely before it goes live.
Message Edited by Roycroft on 08-27-2005 11:01 PM
KaingPu
Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:26 pm
#30
Roycroft wrote:
Never done this before but....QFE.
1 or 2% is too much.
They need to remove it completely. They are toying with a core component of the crafting system that's been in since day oneand it will have a staggering impact on every crafter in the game.
It seems they are listening...I hope they hear the mass discontent with the thought of ruining years of work by their most loyal crafters/merchants. I'm not even in that group. I came back and commited to the game as a crafter because of thelong term challenge it offer(ed).I don't have stockpilesof the uber resources...I don't want an easy"I win" button. I want the satifaction of succeeding in the what once was a challenging and complex virtual economy.
Again, it's the journey...not the destination, that keeps people playing. I hope the devs can see this and take out the resource buff completely before it goes live.
I must respectfully disagree with you. 1 or 2 % makes very little difference. We're talking about 9 (18 for elite professions) points MAX with a 900+ qualitiystat (remember they always round down). Without a critical successit will not allow us to experimentpast the maximums of the items already available.Thisis no more gamebreaking then allowing cities to give crafting bonuses, foods that do the same, and the already present bonus we get from inspirations. If it was still looking to be 10% I'd be more apt to agree, but your assertion that this is a "I win" button for new crafters is inflammatory and baseless.
Roycroft
Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:19 pm
#31
It may have been a bit dramatic...but hardly inflammatory and baseless. If anything, calling my (and apparentlysignificant amount ofother's) opinions on this "baseless" is much more inflammatory than my previous post.
What is also inflammatory is the fact they are changing one of thecore "gates" thatthrottles those who are newer to crafting. Although the stat buff is much less now, there still have been significantly more resource spawns that will allow for uber stats "with thebuff", than without.
Thus, it will be considerably easier to find a spawn (or vendor selling resources) that will allow for someone who's worked for a few months to be nearly equal to someone who has invested years in their trade. It doesn't take but a slight difference in resource stats to make alarge difference in the outcome of the crafted item (andwhether they are marketable or not).
Not to mention, many who have invested the time are having the perception that they are being nerfed. Regardless of the reality of how much the older uber resources are being devalued...this is something that is not in anyway needed in the crafting system. There are many, many other ways to increase an entertainers value other than nerfing (however much) a large segment of the most loyal and long term crafters.
I stand by my previous post.
Respectfully,
Oslir
Message Edited by Roycroft on 08-28-2005 04:20 PM
KaingPu
Sun Aug 28, 2005 4:11 pm
#32
Roycroft wrote:
It may have been a bit dramatic...but hardly inflammatory and baseless. If anything, calling my (and apparentlysignificant amount ofother's) opinions on this "baseless" is much more inflammatory than my previous post.
What is also inflammatory is the fact they are changing one of thecore "gates" thatthrottles those who are newer to crafting. Although the stat buff is much less now, there still have been significantly more resource spawns that will allow for uber stats "with thebuff", than without.
Thus, it will be considerably easier to find a spawn (or vendor selling resources) that will allow for someone who's worked for a few months to be nearly equal to someone who has invested years in their trade. It doesn't take but a slight difference in resource stats to make alarge difference in the outcome of the crafted item (andwhether they are marketable or not).
Not to mention, many who have invested the time are having the perception that they are being nerfed. Regardless of the reality of how much the older uber resources are being devalued...this is something that is not in anyway needed in the crafting system. There are many, many other ways to increase an entertainers value other than nerfing (however much) a large segment of the most loyal and long term crafters.
I stand by my previous post.
First, please ignore my registration date when considering where I come from as registration is only for one character on the forum and not the game itself. I will have played this game for 3 years with beta very soon on several accounts. I love this game.
Second, you may be catching me in a debate mood. It is adversarial but I hope that you don't take it as any form of a personal attack.
You are reiterating the same things that have been said when they first found out that humans could be 14 pt artisans, when they added player cities and the crafting bonuses they give, when they gave us the 30k resource units as veteran rewards... I can continue ad nauseum.
No... any crafter today, for a price, can get almost any resource spawned on the server. In bulk most likely. Many people sell off stock or rotate out slightly lesser quality resources for one crafter which are extreem to another. Not to mention all the crafters that decide to move into combat for a change or to go*shiver* Jedi. It is also sadly easy to make big money in a short time.Finally, every day means another chance that uber spawn will hit.
I've mastered all but Shipwright and Jedi with just one character alone (which doesn't take into account all my others). I know the costs... I know the price... I know how hard you have to work.
At present what is offered is a miniscule change. To call it an "I win" button is baseless and intended to be inflammatory.
base·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bsls)
adj.
Having no basis or foundation in fact; unfounded.
Synonyms: baseless, groundless, idle, unfounded, unwarranted
These adjectives mean being without a basis or foundation in fact: a baseless accusation; groundless rumors; idle gossip; unfounded suspicions; unwarranted jealousy.
adj.
Having no basis or foundation in fact; unfounded.
Synonyms: baseless, groundless, idle, unfounded, unwarranted
These adjectives mean being without a basis or foundation in fact: a baseless accusation; groundless rumors; idle gossip; unfounded suspicions; unwarranted jealousy.
in·flam·ma·to·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-flm-tôr, -tr)
adj.
Arousing passion or strong emotion, especially anger, belligerence, desire or indignation.
Characterized or caused by inflammation.
Arousing passion or strong emotion, especially anger, belligerence, desire or indignation.
Characterized or caused by inflammation.
A new set of spawns could hit tomorrow in game with maxed stats. Is that a nerf? Is every new spawn you've been hoping for (and gotten some) a nerf for the other crafters who didn't have access to it for their earlier high end products?
This offering from SOE isn't even a clumsy leveling tool at 1 or 2%. It's a overextended gift to crafters. A gift some vocal people don't want because, as always, people are afraid the other guy will upsurp their position.
Until, or if, they up the percentage this change is neither gamebreaking nor a nerf to already established crafters.
A game breaking nerf is almost what they did to entertainers. Game breaking is looted items better then can ever be crafted (as is was in SW which is why I never bothered to master it). Game breaking is SOE continually giving us mission items better then can be crafted.
Your crafting position is transitory. Is it upsettingwhen somethingcomes up to show you that fact? Yes. But as other crafters are better... so you will be.
My message was not defame in any way disagreement with the changes. As I stated earlier, had it been 10% or more I would be agreeing that it's overpowered and not warranted. As a nominal bonus that can only be given by an actively participatory entertainer I don't see it as game breaking or as powerful as some of this contention has caused.
Thank you for your time and your consideration.
Roycroft
Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:06 am
#33
Ahh...so you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now it makes sense.
Looking up and posting definitions is not helpful....but more condecending and pompous than anything. Since youseem to fancyyourself as a *debator extroidenaire*....you should be familiar with the term"strawman".
You have used this tactic quite well as interjecting "game breaking" multiple times is your words, not mine.
A troll (albeit polite and well spoken) that uses strawman arguements is not only annyoing, but counterproductive. So if I seem a little less civil, it would be because you have admitted and proved to being the above.
I'm just trying to protect my long term entertainment. You seem to enjoy seeing your own text on public message forums.
You'll have to forgive my lack of tact in this last reply. But when you admit that you are debating just for the sake of it, in reality you are waisting my time. I'll reserve debating for the sake of debating for rl friends who will actually argue the points involved and... not debate points that haven't been made.
/tiphat
Good day.
Pappi
Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:19 am
#34
now now children... if you're gonna go at each other, at least pick the right fights 
it's "usurp" and "extraordinaire". don't ask me how I spotted them, they jumped out at my 6am-and-haven't-been-to-bed self
it's "usurp" and "extraordinaire". don't ask me how I spotted them, they jumped out at my 6am-and-haven't-been-to-bed self
Roycroft
Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:33 am
#35
I don't pick many on these boards....but I thought this was important enough to make a few posts about.
And I'm sure that's not the only error I made in this thread.
/throwstantrum 
Pappi
Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:39 am
#36
Roycroft wrote:I don't pick many on these boards....but I thought this was important enough to make a few posts about.And I'm sure that's not the only error I made in this thread./throwstantrum
well, you don't expect my overnighter-self to actually read the whole thread now, do you?
... at least not until I take a nap
KaingPu
Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:57 am
#37
This is a clumsy format but I wished to speak after each point following the point
Roycroft wrote:
Ahh...so you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now it makes sense.
No, I never stated that I'm "arguing for the sake of arguing". I am honest enough to allow you to understand some of the motivating factors as to why I feel it is necessary to reply and continue the discussion. After all my position is as valid, and reasoned, as yours.
Looking up and posting definitions is not helpful....but more condescending and pompous than anything. Since you seem to fancy yourself as a *debator extroidenaire*....you should be familiar with the term "strawman".
I posted those definitions to make sure that we understood that they were being properly used. That I was not attacking you, but simply using the words to properly define how your assertion appears. As a lover, and continual student, of the language (and a person occasionally struck with fits of arguing semantics) I always wish to make sure that the correct ideal is conveyed.
I never said nor put forth that I was a, as you say, "debater extraordinare". I stated that you may have caught me at a time where I feel I should debate and defend an opposing perspective. The fact I hold that position shows that I'm not "arguing to argue" but simply as ready to defend my position as you are. Normally a certain level of histrionics I ignore but I felt the need to speak and defend myself on this point.
You have used this tactic quite well as interjecting "game breaking" multiple times is your words, not mine.
I realize the over use of this phrase now of course. I am doing the same as you... adding intonation and voice to something. I also made the untenable mistake of mixing your position with the underlying sentiment of the one you quoted as well as others. Hence my specific use of the phrase "game breaking".
As to it being a strawman. It is a strawman only in the sense that you did not advocate the change as (to over quote myself again) "game breaking". When speaking to your specific objections it is in no way a strawman.
You assert that this change will allow a new player to craft items as well or better then older, established, crafters. I put forth options to show that, as I see it, it is an incorrect perception. A perception that comes about every so often on the boards as it happens.
A troll (albeit polite and well spoken) that uses strawman arguments is not only annoying, but counterproductive. So if I seem a little less civil, it would be because you have admitted and proved to being the above.
If an opposing voice that gives alternative reason and perspective is trolling then I suggest you've over sensitive.
I'm just trying to protect my long term entertainment. You seem to enjoy seeing your own text on public message forums.
I would suggest if that were true that I would have a higher post count. In general I try to post speaking from both my perspective and personal knowledge (or to bid on an item in the trades). You do no less.
You'll have to forgive my lack of tact in this last reply. But when you admit that you are debating just for the sake of it, in reality you are waisting my time. I'll reserve debating for the sake of debating for rl friends who will actually argue the points involved and... not debate points that haven't been made.
Actually, I asserted that you and others were being overly emotional with an argument that I perceived as based in that emotionalism and not in a more solid base. An argument that was also intended to create, and foster, a visceral reaction in the reader to speak against the developers on this point.
You in turn said that yours might be overly dramatic, but not inflammatory, nor baseless. You then spoke as to how this was so.
I returned with an unfortunately overreaching (as I dragged sentiment from other posters into our discussion, hence once again my overuse of that interminable phrase) counter. My points however are still valid after removing that phrase and speak to the point so I will leave them stand (as you have yours) without recommenting or requoting.
You sir ascribed voice, intonation, and meaningthat did not exist (an affliction we can all be victims of). I think if you take the time to examine what I've said that you will reexamine your accusation of my being a troll. Yours is a position I've more then once said I would agree with if the percentages were as originally offered. Does this not allow you to see that I do understand where you are coming from but simply do not agree with it as it is now presented?
As an aside or more honestly a joke:
Please excuse my use of tact as I don't wish to be trollish in nature. I just like trying to speak to people in an honest evenhanded fashion... unless it's a flame war then it's everyone for themselves!
/formalbow
Good day
KaingPu
Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:08 am
#38
Pappi wrote:
now now children... if you're gonna go at each other, at least pick the right fights
it's "usurp" and "extraordinaire". don't ask me how I spotted them, they jumped out at my 6am-and-haven't-been-to-bed self
Now now Pappi... you think people actually use those darn spell checkers (besides the spell checker doesn't know extraordinaire) ?
Formany of us (or at least some of us)... intellect, an expansive vocabulary, and a penchant for verbosity bordering on verbal (or written) diarrhea doesn't mean you can always spell correctly.
Pappi
Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:56 pm
#39
I don't use spell check either, which is why I get paranoid and go back to edit my posts a lot