Artisan Archive
Thread: The *official* Please nerf macroing instead of other stuff thread
I never said it was an exploit. It's a balance issue as far as I'm concerned.Using long-running macros goes against the spirit of the game. Didn't the devs say they want to also appeal to the casual gamer? If you allow an environment where powergamers that can run a macro all day will get so far ahead of casual gamrers so fast, without actually working for it, then that's unfriendly to casual players.
Don't get me wrong here, I don't have anything against powergamers. I'm somewhere in between. I made it to novice architect in a week, and I didn't use macro sampling to do anything while I was gone from the computer for more than a few minutes at a time. My sampling macro only ran for 5 minutes, and I sat there and chatted or crafted mostof the time I was doing it. But powergamers need to do the work to earn the levels, just like the casuals.
My point here is that using the macro function as implemented is not an exploit. But using it to sample for hours on end while you're not even there, in order to avoid having to pay for harvesters, or using it to gain dancing experience while AFK for hours at a time is not within the spirit of the game as the devs intended or as most people would like it to exist.
It's unbalancing in the direction of players who can do it feasably and it's just plain silly to include a game mechanic that allows long stretches of AFK activity.
With an 80 character limit and a 10 second /pause max, what could we do?
/sample;/pause 10;/pause 10;/pause 10; /pause 10;/pause 10;/pause 10;/stand;done
This would let you sample for one minute, stand up, and say "done". This is long enough to go to the bathroom quickly, but not grab a smoke. So we have to fine tune it a bit. Maybe a 20 second limit on /pause would be better, I don't know. It's certainly long enough to grab a few samples while you are chatting with someone and has a flag at the end to let you know they are done grabbing the bit you're gonna need for the little project.
There needs to be some sort of limit imposed on how long we want macros running a character while the player is AFK.
Oh, and just becuase I macro sampleddoesn't mean I thought it was in the spirit of the game (even using a 5 minutemacro). The only reason I PLed my way up to architect (sampling and grinding) was because of the stupid requirement for a master Arch to get a PA hall.
Macroing IS cheating, no matter how you slice it (heh...). Your character is actively gaining you resources without cost while you are not controlling him/her. This is the whole point of having bots in the game. Yeah, they cost money.. nothing is free if it's legit.
In order for this game to work, real-world physics must be in place. You can't go out and dig holes 24hrs a day can you? You can't, but a machine can. No different in this world than it is in the SWG world.
It wouldn't be hard to kill macros, even if 3rd party apps were written. You still sit in the same place, which is the easiest way to tell server side that you are inactive for hours on end.
I don't macro. Could I? Sure...but in order to get the most from a game like this, you have to be willing to follow the rules.
Do you think a resource exploit like this would exist in EQ? No friggin way. Someone mentioned writing a 3rd party app if they nerf it. I belive that would be a violation of the EULA and a banning offense.
itis a feature, but it is NOT working as intended. It was NOT intended to be a resource exploit. Do we nerf all macros? Nope. But, patch the hole created by those few will continue to exploit it. No one said using *A* macro was cheating, rather using it for a specific purpose is the problem. You can own a firearm and shoot it legally, however if you take someone out with it your going to have to pay the price no? The firearm is working like it is supposed too.. but the actions it took were beyond the bounds of the law.
It will continue to screw up the economy when you have a flood of resources that took NO credits to get. If I have to keep myself logged in to stay compedative, then the game starts to become pointless to all but the hardcore 17 year olds with time to burn.
If you can gather more resources sampling than by using a harvester then there was something wrong. I hate to say this but sampling is called sampling for a reason. Sampling should be used to gather a small amount of a material/resource for testing. It is not for gathering a large amount of materials and resources. I take samples to see what resources work best for a design. If I like the result, I have my harvester mine the resource for me. The only other time I will take samples is if I have nothing better to do or if I need a few units to finish a project that I am working on. If I want to gather large amounts of materials, I use a harvester. If macro sampling gathers more materials than a harvester, then why buy a harvester?
There is a problem if its more effective to use a disposableharvester instead of a fully maintained one.
These problems/bugs/exploits werefixed and I am glad. The only reason some people are complaining is because they got used to things being so easy. A lot of people skilled up to the elite professions by grinding. Some made quality equipment and gaveit away or sold if for such low prices that the economy was damaged. I don't think the developers intended this. I'm still amazed that I made master artisan and put a serious dent into two elite artisan professions without sampling 24/7 andusing disposable harvesters.
Now some people have concerns about not having enough credits or resources. If this is a problem,raise your prices to compensate for your expenses.It happens all the time in the real world. If you want to sell houses for 8k, probots for 2k or give away equipment then you deserve to go broke.The artisan professsion and its elite branches aren't supposed to be easy or cheap.
One thing that this patch has done that many people have overlooked is that it made some of the merchant abilities worthwhile to take. The patch is a good one, mow all they have to do is fix schematics in the datapad and things will be all set.
Orich wrote:
itis a feature, but it is NOT working as intended. It was NOT intended to be a resource exploit. Do we nerf all macros? Nope. But, patch the hole created by those few will continue to exploit it. No one said using *A* macro was cheating, rather using it for a specific purpose is the problem. You can own a firearm and shoot it legally, however if you take someone out with it your going to have to pay the price no? The firearm is working like it is supposed too.. but the actions it took were beyond the bounds of the law.
It will continue to screw up the economy when you have a flood of resources that took NO credits to get. If I have to keep myself logged in to stay compedative, then the game starts to become pointless to all but the hardcore 17 year olds with time to burn.
I'm glad to see some people get my point. I'll say it again, I love macros. Having an opening shot macro is very handy, and i'm sure there are plenty of other ways people are using them I never thought of.
aztcangl wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like it's becoming a "moral" thing now. By nerfing macros, you're forcing people to play a certain way dictated in partial by other players' complaints. Crying "it's not fair!" isn't really in the "spirit" of the game if you ask me. People are always going to have differing ideas on how games should and shouldn't be played. Leave people to themselves and let them use the tools they were "given" in the game by the devs. Maybe the reason people were able to macro sampling and dancing are because they seem to be incredibly boring exercises that need to be done in order to get anywhere in your chosen proffession. Who knows?
For some people it is a "moral" issue, but that's not why I don't like it. I think it screws up the economy, as Orich said (and as I've explained earlier in the thread). To address your point directly, *all* games dictate how you can play to some extent. You can't attack non-aligned characters. You can't climb on top of buildings. You can't dig a hole in the terrain to hide in from enemies. You can't destroy people's harvesters.
Some of these are game engine issues, but somerestrictions are put in place because for balance reasons and to make the game most enjoyable for the most people. If macro sampling is screwing up the economy in some way, then it needs to be addressed to prevent it ruining the game experience for others. I'm sure the devs agree, which is why they just nerfed sampling. I'm just saying they chose the wrong fix. I guess we'll wait and see, but I really don't think this "fix" is going to fix the problem they were shooting for.
Now as far as macro entertaining goes, that's more of a "moral" issue with people I think. Most players just think it's somehow "wrong". After all, who cares is someone gets to master musician before you do by AFK dancing? Even for me this is more of a style-of-play restriction issue. But then so is not being able to attack non-declared players. Obviously the devs have to make decisions about how they want the game played and how they want to manage the experience for the players.
Macro-Sampling
-Gains resources while you are [AFK] ***True
-Gains exp while your [AFK] ***True (however surveying exp is pretty worthless, mine was maxed long before i made a macro)
-Is a 'Cheat' because you get resource and exp with no cost/time involved ***False .. There is still risk. of death which negates the fact that you are afk with no risk gaining benifits
There are far to many areas where KOS just doesn't happen. Reds seem to flock to harvester areas now (strange) but if you find a good vein right outside the city (and it does happen) then your likely never to encounter anything that will kill you outright.
Is it a *possible* risk? absolutely. But since your operating without ANY cost to you (other than death, which you simply run your happy self back out a 1K and get your stuff back). It costs money in the real world to do anything, as it should here.
This economy is still in the infant stage. If the flood of non-checked resources continues to flow, then the whole idea of the credit being the driving force in the universe is shot. Why, as a business man, would I pay money for the SAME resource that someone else has exploited for free? I wouldn't, i'd do the same thing. Well, that means I have a flood of resources to use for my own things, and sell. Problem is, that since everyone and their brother has resources/items crafted (for free no less), then it becomes a buyers market. When it is a buyers market, prices drop hard and fast. No money comming in for me, or anyone else for that matter. So, how would one purchase things to make bigger/better buildings if he/she has no steady flow of income? They don't. So, i'll make my own with all my free resources. Great...now what? Sell what i've made? Good luck... 90000 others out there with the same thing, and no one looking to buy. And thus the cycle continues until it collapses.
Economics is based in synergy. If there is a leak in the circle, it effects everything over time. If this is allowed to run unchecked, then it creates a weak dollar and massive inflation in a short period of time. Before we know it, people are burning credits over the fire to stay warm like it's post WW1 Germany.
OA
Question:
Did all this macro sample work take place durring Beta as well? What were the effects on harvester production over the 8 (?) months?
Dancers dance. Good for them. They get XP up and they heal people who come in at all hours of the night. They don't make money (Well, tips..but that can't be much). It is for their own points gain, and that alone.
Macro sampleing is for profit. I don't see people doing it so they can hit survey IV within a day. They do it so they have tons of resources in order to build (read: Sell) items and re-sale the resources. Big difference.
OA
All i see the biggest complaint about macro's is that someone is making competition for someone else. so what if they grind. they are going to play the way they want. make better quality and inform and teach the players that buy the stuff you make that what you have is better quality. not many people now what is good and what is bad. the macro doesn't help in producing used products, they use it to do actions that cause you to sit board at a the keyboard which makes the game no fun and unenjoyable. i make macros to accomplish a few things, even sampling, so i can speed pass the boring part, make some food and get back to having fun. I don't see why someone macroing and grinding is ruining your game. it is not EQ. there is no uber character, the uber weapon is only made by the person who puts time and effort in making it. the grinders won't. stop saying others are killing the game because they are beyond you. play because you want to play, don't stop because you don't like how someone else plays it. we all play under the same rules, some just use it more for there advantage on some things.
my only complaint is that extractors cost to much in maitance and energy to be greatly effective when i have to run to bfe all the time to get to them after running a ton of missions for money. I only doing this to make a decent gun in the game. the grinders don't make anything worth while. i only craft at my leasure, but the amount of resources i need are not easy to come by and get boring if i don't macro. i wouldn't play much if i couldn't macro at all.
Welcome to a game that mimics part of life. you got competition, get over it. don't make new laws so that you force everyone to compete at your level. grow and compete at there level.
Kalano wrote:
I don't see why someone macroing and grinding is ruining your game. it is not EQ. there is no uber character, the uber weapon is only made by the person who puts time and effort in making it. the grinders won't. stop saying others are killing the game because they are beyond you. play because you want to play, don't stop because you don't like how someone else plays it. we all play under the same rules, some just use it more for there advantage on some things.
my only complaint is that extractors cost to much in maitance and energy to be greatly effective when i have to run to bfe all the time to get to them after running a ton of missions for money. I only doing this to make a decent gun in the game. the grinders don't make anything worth while. i only craft at my leasure, but the amount of resources i need are not easy to come by and get boring if i don't macro. i wouldn't play much if i couldn't macro at all.
Welcome to a game that mimics part of life. you got competition, get over it. don't make new laws so that you force everyone to compete at your level. grow and compete at there level.
Another post from someone who doesn't seem to have read the whole thread. Come on people, it's not even two pages long yet. Red herrings and straw men really don't help your case, Kalano.
No one here should be complaining about grinding, because that's irrelevant to the discussion (you can't macro-grind). I'll admit to grinding. But I didn't do it strictly by macro sampling. I did it the "right" way by using harvesters that I had to pay to maintain.
People being "beyond" someone is also irrelevant. I coulcn't care less about your "level" or whether you're macro-sampling as a master architect ("beyond" me) or a newbie artisan ("behind" me).
First you say "We all play by the same rules" then you say "don't force everyone to compete at the same level". Well, in real life, in a working economy, the laws do force everyone to compete on a "level" playing field. And we aren't all playing by the "same rules". Some of us are trying to play the game in a way that's consistent with reality and a working economy. Macro-samplers are playing by a different standard. Their rule is "do anything the game allows me to get ahead financially and in experience".
To be honest, I wouldn't really mind macro sampling if all people did with their earnings was grind out a bunch of whatever and destroy them. When I ground my way through master artisan making heavy axes, I didn't also give them away for free, or post 100 of them to the bazaar at 50 credits a piece. Every day I'dmake a few very high experimented ones and sold them for a fair price. Then I'd grind a bunch of cheap ones using crap materials and no experimentation and I destroyed them. I did this because I knew that flooding the market with a bunch of cheap axes would drive down the prices on crafted melee weapons, which would unbalance the economy.
The problem with the macro-sampling is mainly that people are able to get a few thousand ore (for example) for FREE, make a house (for example) and sell it for 7000 credits. They therefore make 7000 credits profit.
In order for me to make a house, I have to feed three harvesters and a windmill, which in total cost me about 4000 credits a day to run.That means to make 7000 profit, I have to sell it for at least 11,000. Gee, which house are you going to buy? So you might say "But ittook the macro-sampler longer to get the materials". Sure it did, but there were four of them doing it, so in the time I built twohouses and tried to sell them for 11,000, these guys built three to sell for 7000.
These aren't random numbers. I used to sell houses for 15Kwhen I first started making them last week. This was a good profit that representedwhat ithad taken me to get to my skill level andrun the harvesters. A week later I've got people saying "15k? I can get one for 8!" I'll tell you, someone selling houses for 8k while using harvesters aren't making much profit. So they are either giving them away because they want the XP (another topic that annoys me, but can't be eliminated), or they are macro-sampling while in bed and basically making free money AND experience (by being able to make architect stuff without paying for the resources).
Finally (whew),harvesters are a pain. The resource allocation method makes running around to all your harvester fields a real hassle. But this should be much easier once we get mounts and vehicles, so I'll wait until then to see how it goes before I complain too much.
Anyway, I guess I didn't make clear that I do understand there is a problem with the current means people have of getting resources. If you need a couple hundred minerals to get an extractor, and you need to spend a fair amount of time managing it, and you have to put them up all across the plains to get resources to build things, then there should be an easier way of getting them than mmanual sampling.
Maybe if there were an even smaller personal extractor, that could be set up at a low cost and could be built on low-grade veins and still be useful? It could replace a lot of the boring sampling people have to do which encourages them to macro sample. It could have a maximum yield lower than the current ones, so seeking out a high-level vein won't be that beneficial, since it wouldn't get more from a 90% than it would from a 40%.
The point of that concept being that people need resources, and they are going to get the in the early game for as cheap as possible. Currently macro sampling is the only way to get a lot of resources without spending either a lot of money or a lot of time. If you give people a free way to do something and an expensive way to do it, which way do you think they are going to pick?