Artisan Archive
Thread: The *official* Please nerf macroing instead of other stuff thread
Stop looking for "sacrificial features" to prevent what YOU like from being nerfed. Macro-ing isn't the problem. The fact that YOU don't like it, and YOU would never use it, and YOU think that its the root of all evil doesnt change the fact that its an included FEATURE (not exploit) that EVERYONE has the exact same opportunity to use. Personally, I love it. Not for sampling all night and day long while I'm asleep or at work, but for combat macros to setup a string of specials with only one keystroke, or for sampling while at the keyboard crafting / chatting. I'm a big fan of anything that allows me to play without clicking mouse buttons / mashing keys repeatedly. Autorun is my favorite key, and isnt that kind of like a 'run macro'?
The real problem that you're searching for is the "logoff timer" I think that the game logs you off after a period of inactivity already...just make that period shorter. Not too short, or you couldnt smoke a cigarette while sitting to heal from being incapacitated without being logged off. But definately not long enough to allow all-night macro sampling / dancing (the dancing is worse IMHO...surveying XP is worthless after one tree)
RiygoQurgott wrote:
The fact that YOU don't like it, and YOU would never use it, and YOU think that its the root of all evil doesnt change the fact that its an included FEATURE (not exploit) that EVERYONE has the exact same opportunity to use.
Personally, I love it. Not for sampling all night and day long while I'm asleep or at work, but for combat macros to setup a string of specials with only one keystroke
First of all, I love macros. I think it's one of the best ideas they put in and I almost couldn't believe it was there when I got in beta. I know how to program and I had some of the best entertainment macros I saw in beta. People didn't even know I wasn't there most of the time due to the periodic commentary I threw in.
Unfortunately not everyone has the exact same opportunity to use it in the way it's being used. Not everyone can leave their computer connected to the net all day while a macro does the work for them. Not everyone is a crafter or entertainer either. You can't set up a macro to carry on combat for you while you are gone. Try that and you'll likely die soon and often (or end up doing nothing).
I use macros for combat, as I said in my original post. These proposed changes don't affect the use of combat macros at all. Or are you going to tell me you have a combat macro that runs for 10 minutes and is longer than 80 characters?
I'm an architect now, with TK training on the back burner for the nonce. But that doesn't mean I think macroing should allow people to get as many resources FOR FREE while they are at work as I get spendingcreditsand hoursgetting witha harvester anda windmill.
BTW, I was commenting to all the previous threads and not just your original post -- sorry I didn't make that clear.I've noticed more folks using harvesters AND sample macroing, not replacing macroing for harvesters. So, I'm a little confused. I can do just fine with harvesters alone -- it's when I fall behind (i.e., maintenance issue) that I use a macro to get myself going again. Or if I need a small quanity that doesn't require a harvester. Nothing wrong with that.
Why should I suffer just because of power levelers. It's their $$s and time. In addition, it's difficult to impose a particular style of game play and still reach a large audience. All the devs can do is set the stage and deal with it as best they can.
>Oh, and just becuase I macro sampled doesn't mean I thought it was
>in the spirit of the game (even using a 5 minute macro). The only
>reason I PLed my way up to architect (sampling and >grinding) was
>because of the stupid requirement for a master Arch to get a PA hall.
We all have our reasons and it looks like you got what you wanted
'nough said. Looks like they nerf'd it anyway in the latest patch (1/2 the resources). I'll need to find out if that is true for myself tonight.
Zirback wrote:
Looks like they nerf'd it anyway in the latest patch (1/2 the resources). I'll need to find out if that is true for myself tonight.
It is indeed true, and that's actually why I started this thread! A lot of people feel that this reduction in sampling rates will simply force *more* people to use macros to sample, not reduce it, which is supposedly what the devs wanted.
I'm trying to get support behind the idea that there's nothing wrong with the previous sampling rates. You should be able to sit down and hit sample and let it run to the end of your action bar and have a decent amount of materials from it. What is against the spirit of any online game is giving players a way to acquire resources, xp, or anything else *without cost*. The current macro system allows that, so it needs to be balanced to remove that option.
If you want to play the game, then play the game. Don't run a macro for an hour (or 8) while you go to bed, watch TV, work, or anything else. Nerfing sampling is likely to just make more people do this because now getting enough resources to build and support a harvester (and a windmill) is going to take even more time spent kneeling.
Nerfing the macro language a little bitas suggested shouldn't have a deleterious effect on anyone but the macro samplers and entertainers. Isn't this what the devs wanted? Or are they trying to acheive something else with this? Maybe they are just trying to really slow down the acquisition of resources by newbies who can't afford harvesters because they think people are getting harvesters too fast.
If this is the case, then the current fix won't help that either. They'll just drive more people to macro sampling. I guess we'll have to hope Raph has a comment to better explain what their thinking was.
This is one thing I do agree with you on. We will now need to macro more! ;>
Seriously, I feel confident the devs will address the harvester power/maintenance issues in good time which is really needed now. Things will eventually balance. The only thing left will be to deal with the grind. Crafting has always been this way. There isn't much skill to it once you've played for a while. But that's an old story.
What should have been done was not allow macros at all from day one. Bots are already in the game (i.e., harvesters, factories, merchant-npc's, driods, etc). You shouldn't need macroing (especially with the awesome tool-bar and buffered action).Butmacroing ishere, so we'll have to deal with it. Since it's here, I will use it. It's not the players fault. This is where I'm coming from.
Idea: macro-disabled specificservers (i.e., galaxies)
I am actually a casual gamer and like macroing. I have not yet fine tooned mine but will soon. You can complain all you like but if they remove the feature from the game someone will make a third party application that reads the ham bars and is more effeciant than the current macro's that they allow. I could actually go down load a simple to use program easy macros and set up a ingame macro that is better than the system they have now as it includes mouse movement and windows always apear in the same place.It is your beleive that its cheating dont do it. But please stop complaining there will always be things like this in any online game and there will always be these things. I dont know one person that played ac1 that did not have decal and ran programs like sixth sence. If some thing makes the game funner and less of a job and more of a game i'm all for it. What i find funny is this is posted on a skill that actually leads no place.Now the entertainer thing is a good point but who cares it is there toon and there choice.If you dont like it dont do it.
Just remember all attemts in any game to stop macroing has failed. If they remove the ingame system some one will make a program.When a patch goes in to stop that program a newer better program is made. Once the cycle starts and the system is unlocked macro programs get made to cover more feilds.There will be programs to macro every thing from combat to crafting to looping a path between galaxies selling goods.
Laruther, no one other than Zirback is suggesting getting rid of macros. If you'd read the posts in the thread, you'll see that I love macros in this game.
The problem is in allowing macros that let you succeed at aspects of the game with zero effort or cost. And the xp gained in surveying isn't what I'm concerned about. It's people who can sample resources faster than a harvester can while they are sleeping without having to pay any maintenance costs, etc. Giving people access to free resources isnt' the way to a successful economy, and nerfing sampling isn't the best way to fix the problem.
Anyway, I won't rehash the argument yet again. If you want to know what this thread is about, I suggest you actually read it.
FYI, I actually tried an external macro program because I wanted to compare it to the built-in one. Guess what? It did not work. It could move the mouse around, but it couldn't get any clicks to register. I suspect the devs tried to make the game external-macro proof. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough if someone is able to get an external program to macro crafting for grinding and such.
Rootprompt wrote:
So Philomorph you're basically saying since you can't no one else should be allowed to? What about people who can't dedicateat-keyboard time to deal with the pain of harvesters? Oh I get it, their problems don't matter, only yours. Now I understand. Does their Macroing effect your game play?
Logic and rhetoric students take note. This is what's known as the "Straw Man Fallacy". The offenderstarts with an argument he can't really opposeproperly, either due to lack of skill or lack of a good position. Then they take just a portion of it, twist it around a bit to make it much weaker than the original argument, and then attack that instead of attacking theoriginal points that were made.
This is how you deal with it:
Rootprompt, I never said anything of the sort. I could easily runan all day macro. I have a broadband always on connection, no one else needs to use my system, and I work all day. In fact if I wanted to, I could write a macro that would sample all day, then when I got home it would run all night too. Just because I choose not to doesn't mean I can't.
Regardless of my ability to use them, since beta I have been saying that the macro function should not allow people to advance in the game without no effort.
To answer your other question, yes, people who do this *do* affect my gameplay, and rather directly I might add. I have harvesters and I pay upkeep on them, as well as the windmills that power them. This means I have to either sell some of the resources they get or spend time crafting items to sell to keep them running.
Someone who has a macro gather a lot of resources while they are not actually present essentially gets the same resources for free. Now of course, they don't get as many from one character as I get from 6 harvesters. But they cold just as easily set up 6 harvesters, then have them and a friend do macro sampling in addition. This is even worse when compared to someone who only samples legitimately, while actually playing (who gets far less than the macroer).
Either way, the macro users are using a technique that completely violates the spirit of any online game to gain a financial advantage over the other players. Not only that, but they are able to sell their resources and wares for less than I can, because they have less overhead. This is similar to if two businesses existed on the same street, and sold the same items. But if one of the businesses is buddies with the tax collector, and the taxman therefore only bills them half as much as they charge the other guy then they have a serious advantage, and will likely drive the other guy out of business with lower prices.
In a properly functioning market, everyone has a level playing field. People are free to find ways to cut costs and improve efficiency. But there are limits, and there are laws that prevent "unfair" practices that violate the spirit of competition and the law because it skews the economy.
But, regardless of how I personally feel about macro harvesting, the devs obviously felt it was a problem they wanted to reduce. But instead of cutting it off at the source, they attacked the symptom and nerfed sampling. The source of the problem isn't there, it's in the macro use. Balance macros and the problems should go away, or at least be reduced.
The current solution will simply increase macro sampling, further skewing the market against people who don't do it.
Firstly I would have to disagree with the original poster concerning the damaging effects of macro sampling, I have done macro sampling and will continue to do so, until the ability is removed. But I still operate several harvesters, and I really dont understand why people say they are useless, between just 2 of my harvesters I can bring in5000 units of resources per day. It takes me a whole 30 minutes of delivery missions to have enough cash to maintain them ALL for 2 days.
I think people just dontunderstand how to maintain them or something. They bring in the easiest resource units, and free up a lot of my time for other things.