Artisan Archive
Thread: Borked Pups?
GraySeven wrote:
jason67 wrote:
DaBarius wrote:
I am using the best resources possible, but its still comes out crap?
How many exp points are you using(if you only have 10 points that would help explain it), and are you crafting until you get amazings on experimentation(this is equivelent to two additional points). I don't normally keep a schematic unless I get double amazings on the experimentation, which takes many tries in order to get, but ultimately gets you the equivilent of two extra points. Here are stats on a few more...
Reinforced Stocks
-27.05% SAC / -7accuracy
-27.36% SAC / -6accuracy
-27.05% SAC / -5accuracy
-22.89% SAC / -2accuracy
High Power Barrel
+27.67% damage / +7.86% speed
+27.67% damage / +6.13% speed
+27.05% damage / +5.99% speed
+21.02% damage / +1.31% speed
Message Edited by jason67 on 05-05-2005 12:09 AM
A 10 point Artisan is A MASTER! Master Crafters should be able to produce good power-ups, just as Master Armorsmiths can produce good armor. I was producing 80/70 Composite as a 10 point 'smith, but you're trying to tell me I have to be Human AND have +25 in skill tapes....WRONG. I should be able to produce good, workable powerups with only 10 experimentation points, and great powerups as a 12 point, and phenomenal powerups as a 14 point. Not, 14 points to produce workable powerups.
Face facts. If you HAVE TO HAVE 14 Exp points to make usable powerups, then the system is broken.
um... get out there and spend some time and resources seriously trying to craft it. You can craft usable and worthwhile pups at 10pts but it's not easy and will take many failed attempts to get it. You don't HAVE to be a 14pt artisan, however just as any other crafting prof the more points the better the final product. it's up to you if you wanna sit here and complain about it or if you wanna make the ones you can and just move on. I'm not gonna say the system doesn't need improvements or that it isn't broken, cuase it probably is broken like everything else at the moment, but... it can be made functional with effort.
DPS is an entirely misleading statistic. Don't pay attention to DPS, not when you are dealing with double masters, and well constructed combat templates.
Thing is that as a double master you can alternate back and forth between two proffession specials in much less time than it would take to auto attack with one special alone. Just in doing so you can effectively toss your modded DPS out the window, and then front load your damage, or juice up your speed if your weapon speed cooldown timer is too low for your liking.
Not to mention stocks are just simply spectacular!
My alt is MA and just started resetting his PuP vendor, I have 5 factories running atm. I'll prolly start pushing up the cost of these too in a week or two. Having two combat alts, one ranged and one melee I can absolutely see the MASSIVE benifits of using these in the feild, too bad the resists on mobs aren't showing properly as the elemental tuning pups will prolly be very usefull too in time.
Play the give and take game carefully when making them, judge how the stats will look to a combat character, then use the resources accordingly. There are alot of baseline guns out there that have particular advantages over other higher end weapons, the smart shopper will undoubtedly work every aspect to gain the most out of their weapons. Ain't nothing to it but to do it.
I used to swear by PUPS have used them since I started playing.
Pre-CU when a resource called for genericChemicals I.e. Lube Oil OQ990 any stat it didn't have I.e. PE was instead given a null value of one in the equation.
Now it appears that is no longer the case.
I can drop HIgh OQ and CD polysteel into a pup ang get great stats for one side of experimenting 26% starting but the other side Using my 990 oil starts out at 6%.
So I know the formula is borked in regards to how it used to work when using generic resources.
Am I to assume that in order to make great PUPs once again I need to use Liquid Petro Fuel so I can get the PE requirement in the equation.
I tried using Radioactive fuel and my start points reversed 6% and 27%.
If I use the Polysteel Copper and Liquid Fuel will I start near 25% ?
Yes, if your going with OQ/CD in your mineral, like Polysteel Copper, then use a Chemical like Liquid Petro Fuel for your chemical. This chemical will include OQ/PE and "even out" your crafting. Currently if your missing a stat OQ, PE, OR CD, it will give a 0 value. In this way they are making sure we don't get too "uber" on the pups.....no matter what the mineral/chemical combo you come up with something will be 0 since you can get all three OQ, PE, CD, on both mineral and chemical.
So yes, they are borked. Do we have a way around it? More or less.
Do they need to fix something here? Definately.
The crafting UI does not accurately (hell, its not even close!) represent the outcome of the craft.
Well, we should clarify here.
The powerups themselves, and how they are working with OQ/CD and OQ/PE combinations (including 0 value if your missing one of these) are working as intended (in my opinion).
What is borked is simply the green crafting bar that goes up or down based on "how good" your resource is for that slot. It is not giving a 0 value to the missing CD or PE, since no matter how you combine them your going to be missing one of those on either mineral or chemical.
So don't gauge the green bar for the "value" of your resource combinations. Make the initial assembly and see what your percentage is on that first assembly. For instance on my current powerups my assembly is 27% Effectiveness and 28% Effeciency. Very balanced. When I craft these all the way up with my 14pts I end up at 94% Efficiency and 87% Effectiveness (I think that is the final). In all cases I could still add more pts to either experimentation line...even as a 14pt artisan. But the higher I go on speed for instance, the worse off the accuracy hit is....I think the jumps on mine are like -3, -6, -9, -12....so if I put 4 more pts into Effectiveness and ignored efficiency I would have something like 29% Attack Speed but a -12 on accuracy. The 22%/-3 is my "guess" at a good fit for the combo that will sell.
Hawke,
I suggest you remove the converted powerups from your vendor and destroy them. You are doing your customers an injustice by selling those things. With the resources you listed you can do MUCH better at crafting up some new ones. I think many combat folks early on just didn't know any better on the pups.
Use the resources you had listed. They are better than mine and I am jealous!! Drop 5 of your pts into Effectiveness and 6 of your pts into Efficiency. Shoot for at least 8 out of 11 Amazings on your crafts. If you really want to make the best pup's possible with those resources...drop the 5pts in Effect, the 6pts in Efficiency, and do this ALL AT ONE TIME. Keep doing it till you hit an Amazing Success. I did this with my 14pts and while it did take awhile it also did make my pups MUCH better.
I do think the Inspiration buff works....consider it take all of 1 minute to get it...and lasts for 3 hours, why chance not getting it? I live in a Research City, get my Inspiration buff, and also use Bespin Port. Granted Bespin is bugged...you only get 1 craft out of it...but in my above scenerio you get 5 shots per stomach fill at hitting 1 big ALL amazing (most Bespin is 20 fill...lets you take 5 before stomach is full). Every spare minute I get I pull out my crafting droid or cozzy up to my station and I make 5 full attempts at hitting all amazings on a ranged or melee pu. If I get one great, I name it and store it in my datapad. If I don't...I delete them and wait for another time when my stomach is empty again.
As for your action comment....I have two words for you, BLOB CANDY! You can make this as an artisan and it is well worth it. I think the version I crafted up was +180 Action Regen for 58 minutes. This is a great long term food to just keep in your stomach. Then augment your combat with other +health and action foods or even use some Neutron Pixie that now does a nice job on health and action also. Heck, you can even stack spice and food.......I had major issues with my action bar as a master rifleman early on...until I started doing this approach. Takes my health bar to over 4K and my action bar hardly ever drops even spamming specials.
xDiggerx wrote:
Hawke,
I suggest you remove the converted powerups from your vendor and destroy them. You are doing your customers an injustice by selling those things. With the resources you listed you can do MUCH better at crafting up some new ones. I think many combat folks early on just didn't know any better on the pups.
Use the resources you had listed. They are better than mine and I am jealous!! Drop 5 of your pts into Effectiveness and 6 of your pts into Efficiency. Shoot for at least 8 out of 11 Amazings on your crafts. If you really want to make the best pup's possible with those resources...drop the 5pts in Effect, the 6pts in Efficiency, and do this ALL AT ONE TIME. Keep doing it till you hit an Amazing Success. I did this with my 14pts and while it did take awhile it also did make my pups MUCH better.
I do think the Inspiration buff works....consider it take all of 1 minute to get it...and lasts for 3 hours, why chance not getting it? I live in a Research City, get my Inspiration buff, and also use Bespin Port. Granted Bespin is bugged...you only get 1 craft out of it...but in my above scenerio you get 5 shots per stomach fill at hitting 1 big ALL amazing (most Bespin is 20 fill...lets you take 5 before stomach is full). Every spare minute I get I pull out my crafting droid or cozzy up to my station and I make 5 full attempts at hitting all amazings on a ranged or melee pu. If I get one great, I name it and store it in my datapad. If I don't...I delete them and wait for another time when my stomach is empty again.
As for your action comment....I have two words for you, BLOB CANDY! You can make this as an artisan and it is well worth it. I think the version I crafted up was +180 Action Regen for 58 minutes. This is a great long term food to just keep in your stomach. Then augment your combat with other +health and action foods or even use some Neutron Pixie that now does a nice job on health and action also. Heck, you can even stack spice and food.......I had major issues with my action bar as a master rifleman early on...until I started doing this approach. Takes my health bar to over 4K and my action bar hardly ever drops even spamming specials.
You bet.
Just a heads up from my testing of the Pyrillian Cake (Assembly food).
At least with the powerup resources I have getting a great success on initial assembly or an Amazing Success on initial assembly does not impact that stats I start from. They are exactly the same and my end results are exactly the same.
There is a sticky discussing this now...basically this is what i added to it,
I am a multi skilled crafter..Ws/As/Artisan as well as having a combat toon Mr/Mp/MM. I guess it is partially my fault that i have been overwhelmed with the reading i have had to do to keep up with this "New game".
Anyways...i tried to read all posts here so i would'nt repeat what anyone else has said so if i am repeating i appologize.
I have been crafting three and four modded pupswhich in my opinion were the beston Shadowfire for almost two years now. Always selling 2-300 crates per week.
Well between re-learning my weapons (havent even touched armor yet) i have only had a little time to experiment on pups. Resources have never been a problem. I was able to convert over to the new spec resources with no problem using my Sauseu copper 999oq 947cd and Ihium class4 LP 946oq 982pe. Which i believe got me 29%/28% respectively.
Many of my pre cu pups converted to 29.7% dmg/ 19.8% speed, many were lost. The ones that converted well seems to be selling so i guess many people dont care that they lose speed for damage. Again i would like to know if the dps is a valid stat when considering a weapon.
Anyways, i have a MR/MM/MP and the one thing that i noticed i was lacking was action, so i crafted an action cost reducing pup -21.12% in costs and only losing 6 to accuracy. I have done these in melee and ranged, same stats. I have yet to see any big benefit from the other pups we can craft yet. I will keep trying. I must also point out that i have 11 pts (working on the 12th still seeing as i didnt need them pre-cu) and they definitely help in the final outcome of power-ups now
P.S. I have also not seen any benefit outcomewise from getting an inspiration buff. Not nearly as many amazings as i was getting pre-cu. And i have +25 to assembly along with all the other assorted top o' the line crafting goodies we can use.
I agree, Power Ups are hard to figure out. After the trade-off ( adding theplus stats in one catagory and subtracting the minus stats from another ), can anyone except maybe a mathematician, really tell if you've improved the weapon or made it weaker? Like Accuracy bonus -6 or so, based on what? What number do you start with and how will it affect your next shot? Will you miss the target if you have -39 Accuracy? So you increase the Attack speed in hopes that the more rapid fire willoffset theinaccuracy and nothing has been accomplished. I have to laugh at myself to think that someone could tell me, " well, with this power up your chances of survival increase by 20%", now there's something I could hang on to! Lol.
Anyway, I sure do admire all the work that has gone in, trying to figure it all out. For now, I'll just save my resources by not making any Power Ups and check back later.
Message Edited by Amatron on 05-13-2005 09:30 PM
xDiggerx wrote:
I was complaining about powerups on test center and was thinking for the first time since original beta I would be going out of the powerup business. Then live hit and I really sat down and worked with the new schematics.
People, I am selling more powerups now than I ever did. Literally 100's of crates per day are flying off my vendor.
With the best resources I have I am able to craft something like +23 speed/-5 Accuracy or +25 damage/-7 speed. As resources shift in and I can really watch for these now I am sure I can make them better. I sell these for 2K per crate (20 cpu) and I can hardly keep them in stock. I have 5 factories and all they do is make powerups.
Complaining that I am a 14pt Artisan? I paid over 10 million for my pts needed to get to 14pt. Did I do it for making powerups? No, since there is no way I could ever gain that back selling powerups. I did it because as a crafter I have a NEED to make the best stuff possible. For me, as a human, that means 14 pts. Pre-cu granted I hardly ever used all 14 pts, heck, I hardly ever used 12 pts, but I knew if needed I had the pts to make the best.
So often people focus on the negatives. Nobdy is mentioning one HUGE improvement in powerups. Now you can PICK what you make. I would love to know how many hours I spent pre-CU trying to make max/min damage powerups. Some days I would make 100 schems and never hit that combo. Others I would make 10 schems and 3 of them would be max/min dam and a 3rd decent stat also. Now, if someone asks me can I make such and such a powerup...I can sit down, and make it. No "luck" involved in getting the combo I need. To me this was a huge improvement and one we are really overlooking.
Lastly, think about the powerups now and how these would really impact a weapon if this were "real". A speed powerup, allowing you to fire your weapon more often, only makes sense that your accuracy will decrease. Fire more often and hit things less often, obviously. All benefit with no cost just makes no sense. These powerups finally make sense.
And I don't get the DPS comments. The speed poweurps I am making do AMAZING things to increasing the DPS for people...everyone puts them on for the first time (melee and ranged) and almost always I get a "wow" in game when they see the DPS impact. My alt is a rifleman...and I am all about damage...but even I am using speed powerups because I can see the difference in how fast my shots recycle themselves. I can take a base DPS weapon in the 300's and make it's modified DPS in the 600's by dropping the speed of the weapon.
Powerups are not broken or borked or worthless now. They finally make sense in terms of what they offer and they finally offer different options for folks depending on how they do battle.
I've been buying PUPs from xDiggerx for a long time now (since not long after launch.....lol). He makes the best PUPs on Radiant.
After I mastered Rifleman I stopped using PUPs. I was speed capped and the decay to my weapons wasn't worth it. Now the CU has hit and I looked into PUPs once again. They still aren't worth it.
Dig, you said there's a tradeoff (faster shots make you less accurate), I fully understand that and am behind it. The thing that gets me is ALL THE PUPS STATE THEY ALSO CAUSE CONDITION LOSS!!!!!!!!! If you look at the last line of the schematic description it says "will cause" or "chance of" condition loss. That is not a tradeoff. Good thing offset by a bad thing is a tradeoff. Good thing offset by 2 bad things is just making Precision/Armalite (2 bigname weaponsmiths on Radiant) that much richer.
I see this going full circle. After people found out how much PUPs took off the condition your sales went down. I see the same thing happening again (especially since WSs can't hit 1K condition now- Ihaven't seen ANY new weapons over 900 condition).