Artisan Archive
Thread: artisans whine about not making money? Want harv certs? Try selling something....
EdOWar wrote:
Who's getting something for nothing? Nowhere in the survey line does it say anything about harvestor certs. The skill points invested in surveying allow you to--are you ready for this?--survey! Surveying is something no other profession can do. Being able to place harvestors with no certification is something for all professions, including Artisans. It is not written anywhere that artisans are entitled to be the sole benefactors of harvestors. The fact that artisans can survey gives them an immense advantage when using harvestors.
Trying to claim that harvestor certs isn't about money or greed is disingenuous at best. The entire harvestor cert issue is about giving huge money making potential to a novice profession. With harvestor certs, the artisan profession would have a lock on the resource market. And please spare me the personal harvestor BS--compared to medium and heavy harvestors, personal harvestors are worthless (which is one reason why they don't sell for much).
Instead of trying to enhance artisans by nerfing everyone else in the game, how about proposing changes that add something to artisan. Many people have suggested some kind of harvestor bonus for the survey line or for master artisans. This sounds like a much better idea to me, because it adds something to the game, it adds something to the Artisan profession and doesn't nerf 90+% of the other players in the game.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
This is getting monotonous. Once again the people who can only see a blinking "nerf" sign completely miss the point. Nowhere in the Survey line does it mention anything about harvester certifications? Gee, did you figure this out all by yourself? Of course it doesn't which is what this whole debate is about.
Every class can place harvesters? Bingo again for stating the obvious while making no point what so ever. The reason for certifications in the Artisan or an elite Miner profession have been explained many, many times in other threads. Go read them and then try to formulate a rebuttal.
Not written anywhere that only Artisans should be allowed to harvest? Really? Bingo again for stating the obvious and once more, no point made on your part what so ever. Back to why we're having this debate: People are arguing that certifications should be added.
Harvester certifications aren't about making money? Once again, has been explained to death already. It gives huge money making potential to a novice profession. Yes, it does but it's a novice profession that ANYONE can get by spending a minimal amount of skill points. The core of the argument since you've obviosuly missed it is that everyone gets access to personal, medium, and heavy harvesters with no skill point expenditure. This is something that is not available or refelcted in ANY other profession, be it novice or elite. How many other ways does this need to be explained?
Srednii wrote:
There are a whole bunch of different "skills" that everyone can use without skill point expenditure. Riding shuttles, using vehicles, riding mounts, wearing armor, using factories, owning homes,and using harvesters. There's a small handfull here who seem to beleive that skill points must be spent to use harvesters, but most of us disagree with this and think it's fine the way things are (witness the thread with like 100+ no's, and like 17 yes's).
They took the miner out of the game for a reason (who knows with devs, maby they rolled a dice), and they arn't going to alter one of the existing classes into a new miner class at this stage of the game. And they especially arn't going to give a basic starting proffession (artisan), what amounts to an Elite skill set (by certing only artisans for heavies).
Do I have to spell everything out for you? Shuttles don't generate money (player shuttle ports may be an exception but they're not exactly cash cows). Mounts, armour, factories, and houses don't inherently generate any money. Yes, riding a mount may increase the rate at which you can generate cash but it does not generate income while you ride it. Armour assists in money generation but wearing doesn't generate money. Combining armour with combat skills does generate money but the combat skills cost skill points. Factoriesrequire schematics which must be made by crafters who have spent skill points. Houses don't inherently generate income but they and other structures are required to place vendors who do generate income but at a cost of skill points, for both Merchant and the crafting profesion used to make the goods to sell.
Harvesters don't fall into the above category. They are used to generate income at no skill expenditure. You buy a harvester, you place it, drop power and credits into it and watch it generate income. The resources can be sold in raw form for credtis or converted into goods that sell for credits. Besides harvesting what other activity can be undertaken in game that generates income without skill point expenditure?Begging and theft do not count 
.
EDIT: In case my examples weren't clear enough, imagine a new character with absolutely no skills and they are not allowed to acquire any skills, ie. Everything being equal.
- Give them a mount and 10k credits. They can spend the money on food for their mount but they really can't do anything productive.
- Give them 10k credits to spend only on shuttle tickets. Yay, it's fun to fly around.
- Give them armour and 10k credits. Great, they can stand around but not fight.
- Give them a factory and 10k credits. Useless since they can place it and load it with power and credits but not make anything.
- Give them a house and 10k credits. Sure, they have a roof over their head but not much else.
- Give them a harvester and 10k credits. Even without survey they can drop it on the ground, fill it with power and credits,pick the highest concentration and start making money.
See the distinction now?
Message Edited by Bugbait on 05-20-2004 03:37 PM
Bugbait wrote:
- Give them a mount and 10k credits. They can spend the money on food for their mount but they really can't do anything productive.
- Give them 10k credits to spend only on shuttle tickets. Yay, it's fun to fly around.
- Give them armour and 10k credits. Great, they can stand around but not fight.
- Give them a factory and 10k credits. Useless since they can place it and load it with power and credits but not make anything.
- Give them a house and 10k credits. Sure, they have a roof over their head but not much else.
- Give them a harvester and 10k credits. Even without survey they can drop it on the ground, fill it with power and credits,pick the highest concentration and start making money.
See the distinction now?
there is something you don't get.
that newbie with his harvester can drop it where ever he want, even if he is lucky, he still need power and money to put in it.
And once it has harvested, he still need to sell the stuff.
Running an harvester doesn't generate money, it destroy it.
Missions and loot generate money, maintenance destroy it.
That is how the economy of SWG is build.
Remove the access to harvester to most people, what does happen?
1) less money is destroyed as less harvesters are used.
2) more money is created as the people don't have to maintain their harvester anymore.
What does happen to an economy when it generate much more money than it destroy?
Gavvot wrote:
BugBait,
there is something you don't get.
that newbie with his harvester can drop it where ever he want, even if he is lucky, he still need power and money to put in it.
And once it has harvested, he still need to sell the stuff.
Running an harvester doesn't generate money, it destroy it.
Missions and loot generate money, maintenance destroy it.
That is how the economy of SWG is build.
Remove the access to harvester to most people, what does happen?
1) less money is destroyed as less harvesters are used.
2) more money is created as the people don't have to maintain their harvester anymore.
What does happen to an economy when it generate much more money than it destroy?
I said give the newbie a harvester and 10k or did you miss that part? Very hypothetical situation anyway but it served a purpose and clearly illustrated my point. Yes, he still needs to sell it but keeping to the original conditions of the scenario the newbie won't have the 10k but does have a harvester and raw resoruces. Quite easy to sell the resources on the Bazaar for a profit.
Compare this to the other options. Sell the mount, armour,etc. and all you have is more cash. The other itemscannot be usedto generate more cash without skill points being spent. That was the point being made.
What happens to an economy where you generate more money than you "destroy" or consume? Simple, inflation (more disposable income to spend on the same goods)and that's exactly what's happening in the SWG galaxies now. See my other post if you want an idea on how economics can work with harvester certifications to try to remedy the rising inflation.
1. there are 16 professions which require some harvested resource. Each and every of these professions requires these materials, so for balance and fairness blah blah we'd have to give them at least personal harv certs.
BTW 16 professions is roughly 1/2 the total number of professions, so 50% of the players would still be able to harvest in some form.
2. I'm sorry but I'm still convinced prices would rise. Now I'm not trying to kneejerk, I don't know how much they'd rise, but it would be by some ammount. Supply and demand simply says less supply being delivered without removing any demand (aka people leaving the game), would result in a price increase. So while the economy might currently be in an inflationary status, how would harv certs help any?
3. And last. Other than "trying to correct a game imbalance" which is so noble an ideal I feel breakfast coming back up, why do you really want harv certs? I seriously don't think people are so noble as to only be concerned about the good of the game...ect...most people are in it for themselves. Virtual wealth and power they can not achieve IRL is one of the largest draws of an online game, irregardless of whether people can/will admit it or not.
jassi007 wrote:
Bugbait, here is a question for you. It is true that excess capital causes inflation. harvesters for all are "part" of that problem. But what would really, REALLY, happen if harvs went to a cert scheme?
1. there are 16 professions which require some harvested resource. Each and every of these professions requires these materials, so for balance and fairness blah blah we'd have to give them at least personal harv certs.
BTW 16 professions is roughly 1/2 the total number of professions, so 50% of the players would still be able to harvest in some form.
2. I'm sorry but I'm still convinced prices would rise. Now I'm not trying to kneejerk, I don't know how much they'd rise, but it would be by some ammount. Supply and demand simply says less supply being delivered without removing any demand (aka people leaving the game), would result in a price increase. So while the economy might currently be in an inflationary status, how would harv certs help any?
3. And last. Other than "trying to correct a game imbalance" which is so noble an ideal I feel breakfast coming back up, why do you really want harv certs? I seriously don't think people are so noble as to only be concerned about the good of the game...ect...most people are in it for themselves. Virtual wealth and power they can not achieve IRL is one of the largest draws of an online game, irregardless of whether people can/will admit it or not.
No, excess capital by itself won't result in inflation, I was keeping it simple.
In regards to point (1), I think everyone agrees that anyone should be able to use personal havresters at no skill point cost.
In regards to point (2), I already explained this in another thread. In summary: Reduce supply of raw materials --> Increases unit price since supply is now less than demand --> Consumables increase in price --> Excess money is slowly consumed by the cycle since the cost of earning money has now increased --> As money in system decreases so does purchasing power --> Consumables and raw resources also drop in price since demand is now equalising with the original drop in supply. Certifications would help in two ways: (1) Reduces the supply of raw materials since everyone won't be using heavies exclusively, (2) If people change templates to adapt sincethebest harvesting is no longer "free"then they are less jack of all trades so their interaction with the rest of the market increases thus profits start to be more readily distributed to all levels.
Point (3), I like the ideals of fairness in everything I do in real life and it applies to any games I play, be it sport or computer games. Looking at the harvesting situation I logically feel it's unfair for all the reasons I've covered in multiple threads. I have a pure crafter (Master Artisan, Medic, and Doctor) and a pure combat template (constantly changes). Do I use the lots on my combat character to harvest? Of course. Do I think it's stupid that I can do that? You bet. I am being directly affected by the changes I propose but I argue for what I think is fair not what benefits me the most. You don't have to believe that and I won't waste further words trying to convince you either. There are many aspects about this game that simply make it too easy and heavy harvesting for all is one of them.
Virtual wealth and power they can not achieve IRL is one of the largest draws of an online game, irregardless of whether people can/will admit it or not.
I fully agree. I'm successful in many areas of my real life which is why I seek fairness in life and in games online since I don't need virtual wealth or success. I don't belong to a PA because I don't feel the need for it. I play almost exclusively with my real life friends who also play. I don't needto make friends online (but don't turn away the opportunity to either) because I have all that I need in real life. Does this answer your question?
EDIT: Some really hideous typo's.
Message Edited by Bugbait on 05-21-2004 01:20 AM
Gavvot wrote:
I'm also getting interested in Artisan food when I realised there are some that reduce incap time (I do incap alot), I think others are usefull too.
Be careful if you go solo: that stuff got me killed. Remember that 3 incaps in 10 minutes and you die; also, when a mob incaps me they tend to camp on me for a bit before dispersing. So I stood back up in the middle of the mob and promptly got incapped again. The next incap was longer, but the mob didn't go far. I tried to run for it, but I had no HAM for a Burst Run. And then I was requesting a clone activation.
But the others are good, too: I've sold all the Crispic (attack accuracy bonus) I put on the Baazar. No doubt the Aitha (Blue Milk lite) would sell as well, but I tend to need it for my own use.
I don't know too much about the background of this subject, but being a new player and an artisan, I'd like to add my thoughts. I just made to master artisan after playing for about three weeks. I don't have much income and I operate 4 harvesters which is expensive for me, and I don't yet make things solely to sell on the market, but only for the experience. Soon I will move on to master weaponsmith and then concentrate on crafting for profit.
In my experience so far, selling on the market is not particularly lucrative. I've sold a few combat staffs and few powerups. My biggest seller was a few harvesters that I had built for the experience. I've sold well below what the products are actually worth because right now I'm not out to make a profit. However, despite my low prices, I can say that most of my sales on the market end up being unsuccessful and I just destroy the goods.
My extractors are drawing a couple thousand ore apiece each day. I've tried selling excess on the market but I've never had a buyer, even for high-quality ores. I don't see how making extractors an artisan-only feature would make that much of a difference in the game economy. Economic reason would say that more people using extractors would result in more ore on the market. Miners would then have to lower their prices to make their ores more attractive and to get out their stock.However, there seems to be a steady demand for ore and I don't think that would at all change. With the JTLS expansion coming out, I see the demand for ore in fact increasing greatly, and so increased supply would not destroy the market but actually help keep it balanced.
Some say this huge increase in ore would result in rampant inflation because the harvesters are directly making credits. This, to me, has no logical basis. Harvesters do not directly make credits but make a product which in turn can be sold. When these items are purchased, new credits are not being made but existing credits are merely being redistributed. This does not result in inflation. Most of my experienced friends are sitting on mounds of cash and so even if prices increased because of an artisan-only extractor policy, most people would be able to afford it.