Artisan Archive
Thread: Master Artisan, the Welfare profession?
Unfortunately, as such things are wont to do, parts of this thread have become personal.
Please don't think that Sinist is the official spokesperson of all people who want artisans to have harvester certifications.
And I don't think all artisans want Master of any elite crafting profession with no survey skills to be certified on all heavy harvesters. Because it takes some skill, training, and knowledge (read: skill points) to know how to get those resources out of the ground.
I don't sell resources in-game as things stand right now. I mine what I need to sell crafted items, and I mine what I need to grind my elite professions...just haven't decided what my elite professions will be yet. Ok? So I'm not agreeing with the other proponents of certifications out of self interest (because sure...I'd drop the artisan survey line if I didn't need it too. Who wouldn't?) Goodness, dropping master artisan could result in three elite crafting professions instead of merely two. That has something going for it in my book. And if I were already there, I'm not sure I would want to be told that I had to take the survey line back or take master artisan back in order to harvest resources myself. So I understand where folks are coming from.
I have a lot less sympathy for folks who just want to be able to let their friends use their lots or who just want to use their friends' or guildmates' lots. And I don't think that's what the devs had in mind in making the game though I can't be sure. Hopefully when they answer our questions they will tell us. The 10-lot limit is an artificial limit to begin with. There isn't any aspect of game realism as to why you can own only 10 structures. But if the limit weren't in place, you would see rich players with more structures than the landscape would conveniently hold. Why not have a house on each planet to hold 150 items in while you're off adventuring?
I don't have an absolute number on harvesters...but there are lots of em out there. Lots. Just try running wilderness missions on starting planets and you'll see what I mean. Some are even placed so that creatures spawn inside the harvester and are hard to target. That's not the fault of the person putting down the harvester, but it is the sort of bug to be expected from allowing so many harvesters.
I like the suggestion that you can only access the hopper if it isn't your lot. That at least will make the folks who are renting lots have to be more involved in the process if the current system is kept. And if they can't even pay maintenence or deposit power...there's a whole new set of issues that the cross-server people would see as serious challenges.
I honestly think harvester certifications linked to the survey line of artisan would help integrate new players into the out-of-balance duped economy. Because new players would take the artisan tree for money until they didn't need it anymore. And honestly anyone with trouble acquiring resources or making it economically would probably do the same. I think a lot of folks would do what they're doing now, so the economy might not change so much (other than the folks who have two elite combat templates wouldn't give them up)...just folks would have a reason to take artisan tree skills even if they're not going to craft so that they could be miners while developing their characters.
The higher the price of resources, the higher the incentive for players to take the skills necessary to acquire those resources. This means that resource prices are in some way self-limiting if the new certification system were implemented.
The devs just have to decide the type of game they want to have. And whether they want combat professions mining resources for what the commando correspondent describes as "half" his income. That's a game design decision.
Sinist wrote:
Disagree. You dont need to mass prodcue items at lower levels. The main objective is grinding XP to master. People think that they should be able to make profit all while grinding xp slowly by making the items to Master. No you find the item that yields the most xp per resource and you harvest it and then spit out the items with a amcro in practice mode...
This is the single worst comment I have ever read on any crafter forum.
The main objective of leveling a crafting profession is to learn the ropes. I was learning to make high quality armor from the moment I gained the schematic for bone armor. I sold high quality bone, Mabari, and chitin while getting to 3/0/0/4 armorsmith. There I opened a business selling very high quality Ubese armor, gained a name for myself, and learned how to operate every facet of a succesful armorsmith franchise. By the time I had actually mastered the profession, I had enough resources and know-how to craft composite that was flying off the vendor just days after I mastered the profession.
The idea of grinding as fast as you can through the crafting professions, and then worrying about learning the craft, the business, and aquiring the resources is exactly what drives so many frustrated "master" crafters. They seem to think that somehow that last box on top of the tree is going to bestow them with the knowledge and equipment to make the items that have been the envy of the server for months. Instead, they get a few extra schematics and a huge helping of frustration as the realities of the trade hit them head on.
But I digress. To your original point of only master elite crafters needing factories, that's completely, utterly ridiculous. Every armor schematic granted in armorsmith, for example, requires factory run components. I guess if you hold the warped, skewed vision of what leveling a crafting character should be then it makes perfect sense, but anyone who wants to even attempt to play the trades the way they're indended sees this "idea" for what it is - garbage.
Tuanga wrote:
Well its obvious that Sinist is a complete moron and not open to any new ideas. He is the only one that is right, its really not worth arguing with him. I bet if he started playing the game, instead of arguing on the forums, he'd realize that there is more to do than worry about what master Artisans should have.
Being right is being right. Im not wrong because you disagree with me. And I do play the game. I play the game every day 24 hours a day and it is my duty to be worried about the integrity of the game and to be a constructive community member.
Lamune_Baba wrote:
bigredsage wrote:
heh, I wasn't really using the armor as a comparison, more responding to another post. But I do think it should be certified. If it's something that you "Just put on," well, a gun is something that you just pick up, right?
Yes, it is...
This is something I've argued before, and not at all on topic- but yes, a gun IS something you just pick up.
"Certifications" should be completely eliminated, and some alternate penalty (most likely accuracy) should be implied instead.
The idea of a weapon doing close to 1/10th the damage depending on who's HOLDING it is utterly stupid. And yes, some weapons do not require any special training- a gun being a very good example. It doesn't matter if a trained Marine or a six-year old pulls the trigger, that gun is going to deal the FULL damage to whatever it hits.
Now... in combat, the Marine is going to have his training to rely on (which in game-terms effects to big accuracy bonuses, and access to the "special attacks." The six year old would have huge penalties to hit, penalties to speed, etc etc... but damnit, if the kid gets lucky, and actually hits his target, it should do full damage...
I hear they want to use Certs for armor now, too. More stupid. The untrained might be slower, less manuverable, etc.. etc.. in that suit of armor, but damnit, you get shot in the chest with a blaster, it's going to stop the same amount of damage..
Back on topic...
I don't know if Artisans should neccisarily be given exclusive rights to the use of the harvesters, but I could definately see giving them some sort of bonus to their use. Perhaps the effective BER goes up in the hands of a Master, etc etc. Gives them some rewards for their efforts. Artisans know how to "tweak" that little bit of performance out of the system. Kinda' like Smuggler slices.
I can understand how some artisans are miffed about the sale prices of their stuff, too. Houses, harvesters, etc... all degrade over time, but you never, ever get paid another dime for them. Unless a person is trading lots, they buy 10 Heavies, and they never need to buy another harvester again. Meanwhile, the player is chucking thousands of dollars a week into the system for "maintainance."
I think the artisans should get a chunk of that. Nothing excessive.... just a "use percentage." Maybe 1% of the maintainance paid on the harvesters you sell comes back to you. Y'know... pay for going at and servicing them.
Even at 1%, that'd be some damned nice money for some of the major harvester suppliers.
Hey bud! That's ARCHITECTS that make and sell harvestors, not Artisans. Honestly does anyone ever buy more than one personal harvestor in this game until the light in their head clicks on and they go "that was stupid".
Fivo Asia
DirthNader wrote:
Sinist wrote:
Disagree. You dont need to mass prodcue items at lower levels. The main objective is grinding XP to master. People think that they should be able to make profit all while grinding xp slowly by making the items to Master. No you find the item that yields the most xp per resource and you harvest it and then spit out the items with a amcro in practice mode...
This is the single worst comment I have ever read on any crafter forum.
The main objective of leveling a crafting profession is to learn the ropes. I was learning to make high quality armor from the moment I gained the schematic for bone armor. I sold high quality bone, Mabari, and chitin while getting to 3/0/0/4 armorsmith. There I opened a business selling very high quality Ubese armor, gained a name for myself, and learned how to operate every facet of a succesful armorsmith franchise. By the time I had actually mastered the profession, I had enough resources and know-how to craft composite that was flying off the vendor just days after I mastered the profession.
The idea of grinding as fast as you can through the crafting professions, and then worrying about learning the craft, the business, and aquiring the resources is exactly what drives so many frustrated "master" crafters. They seem to think that somehow that last box on top of the tree is going to bestow them with the knowledge and equipment to make the items that have been the envy of the server for months. Instead, they get a few extra schematics and a huge helping of frustration as the realities of the trade hit them head on.
But I digress. To your original point of only master elite crafters needing factories, that's completely, utterly ridiculous. Every armor schematic granted in armorsmith, for example, requires factory run components. I guess if you hold the warped, skewed vision of what leveling a crafting character should be then it makes perfect sense, but anyone who wants to even attempt to play the trades the way they're indended sees this "idea" for what it is - garbage.
But he's not interested in money. Oh no....
There were no gungan heads in my apprenticeship. Walls and parts, all day long. I knew what every single thing an archtiect could do was when I Mastered, in game and out.
Fivo Asia
/agree cafa
not everyone grinds to the top,many but not all who do arethose who don't want to keep the profession
in weaponsmithing, i made some macroed barrels mainly to get the experimentation tree done. i also made lots of low end weapons (above cdefs) because to put it simply, the masters don't bother with dl20's and the like. there is a market for this among new gamers and people changing professions so it was worthwhile as a sellable product andi did learn much about what it takes to be a weaponsmith.
as a side note factory parts are required in many cases..hence my opposition to the factory certification, i needed crated parts long before i had enough ap for master artisan much less master weaponsmith
I totally agree that master anything for factory certification would be ridiculous. Perhaps the certification could be based on either Master Artisan or that you have advanced sufficiently far in your chosen profession to require factory parts of something you have a schematic for. That would make some sense.
I also can't explain it, but I'm less viscerally opposed to letting someone use someone else's factory than I am to these ghost players with massive harvester fields.