Armorsmith Archive
Thread: A different point of view on the CURB for AS's
1. First I think it's still too early to (over)react to BETA testing, especially with resources and stuff. If Anyone remembers JTL, shipwrights resources were different in BETA than they were in live. the Devs didn't want to give anyone an unfair advantage just because they were testing BETA (if they were the same, it was only because those resources weren't spawning yet so no one could collect them anyways.) Maybe the devs won't change them from testing to live, but maybe they will, we don't know so to react to it so vehemently seems premature to me.
2.Secondly, Most AS's are businessmen too, it comes with the profession, so i'll speak in a business sense. Most people's business in this game grew because they made a quality product, which grew a reputation and now they have a ton of repeat business. But another key to that was getting new customers to become repeat business. SWG crafting is struggling right now because they can't get new business. It's almost impossible for a new AS to compete with a well established one. On my server it costs upwards of 20M to become a 12pt. smith, and do you know how hard it is to sell enough 10pt. armor to make 20M of profit... it's very difficult. Well this will drive away many of SWG's new crafting customers. SWG has THE BEST crafting system for MMORPG's but if new crafters can't compete a then it's all for not because they won't be attracting new customers, thereby dooming their product.
3. I realize some people have worked very hard for their stuff (myself included). They have invested a ton of time, effort, credits, and RL money into making their AS business what it is today, but this is a game. I don't mean to sound harsh or demeaning, but this isn't life. What does having a 100M+ (or higher depending on the server) credit business get you? To me the fun is in creating that business, not in having the credits. I could easily make 100M credits with her if i wanted to, but that's not my goal. My goal is to have fun with the character, i only make creds to suppliment my fun. The fun (for me anyways) in being an AS is two-fold. First it is to tinker and play around and experiment with a whole lot of different armor. I am excited for the CURB because it sounds like it's going to give us a whole lot of things to tinker with. Second Building a business is fun. It gives the crafters a second dimension that other professions just don't have. I need to learn to advertise and create a reputation, keep up with inventory, keep vendors stocked, advertise, keep prices the same. I am not a business owner in RL, but this gives me a small taste of how hard, and rewarding, that job can be.
4. I touched on this earlier, but making crafting a little simpler gives casual players a chance. Do i think it should go to Arch where experimentation does near-nothing? no i don't think that at all. But i do think that a casual player should be able to at least compete with an uber-AS. Casual players just can't craft right now unless they are Arches. It's too complex and time consuming, and demanding. Some players just can't log in every night and craft. After a few weeks/months/years this becomes a HUGE disadvantage. Now i am not saying make it easy to be an AS, but casual players need a chance to thrive, and grow into the profession instead of being muscled out from the very beginning. If a noob walked into the game and started AS right now would they have a chance at surviving? probably not without a TON of work, and does a casual player really have that much effort to put into the game? probably not. Especially since good Wooly hide is so expensive that a casual/newb AS probably can't afford it, increasing the differential between elite and casual player (and increasing the chances that that casual player will go bankrupt/quit)
5.Now here is a Question which i hope will elicit some very interesting answers. Why are you an Armorsmith? The next question is: Why does this make the game fun for you?
For example here's my answers to those Questions:
Why are you an Armorsmith? I am an AS for 2 reasons. One it allows me to tinker around with things. Two, It allows me to build a business from the ground up. I have to meet people, casually drop my business into conversation without being pushy, and do all the things that makes a business successfull.
Why does this make the game fun for you?I love to tinker with stuff. I don't just make the standard Ubese and Comp armor. My favorite is padded, because it allows me to tinker. I have made energy padded, Kinetic Padded, combo of both, LOW HAM padded with kinetic, LOW HAM with enenrgy, LOW HAM combo Energy/Kinetic, plus i get to play with a whole bunch of customization options. Padded armor is an endless supply of tinkering, which keeps me happy. As for my second reason, i love being able to orginize a business from the ground up. I've never really had a chance to do it before, and this gives me the opportunity to see what it's like. I find it facinating.
Edited for a better title, i didn't like the old one, might do it again
Message Edited by linusboarder on 04-11-2005 01:25 AM
Circe' Pojia I have made a huge investment of time and energy. Its only now paying off. I have made good products (I make Low HAM products too) and my sails are starting to reach 2 million a week. My goal is 10 million a week.
I want alot of credits. That is my goal in this game. I think thats fun. You whant alittle armor shop thats fine. I want a Corprate Giant. ( hence "CEO" is my name.)
Now we get these dev's who seam to all be Moaists. Thay are going to wipout the advantages I have worked for. So the "casual" smith does not cry. I know the tpye. Thay have 3 med harvesters, no fusion reactors for power and no money to run them. Thay log on 2 sundays a month and wonder why thay make crap.
Well if the dev's want that to be the core of the economy after the CU. Look at Chinia from 1960 to 1980. And look at China now. Ware motavated people are rewarded.
But this is just a game. I liked your post it repesnted your side well.
Ruebacca wrote:
I did not try to sell 10 pt armor. I made over 60 million credits selling resouces. Then invested it in buying better haresters and building a retail arm. My resouce busness was making 2-3 million a week. Only then did I start grinding AS and bought mysuit.
I have made a huge investment of time and energy. Its only now paying off. I have made good products (I make Low HAM products too) and my sails are starting to reach 2 million a week. My goal is 10 million a week.
I want alot of credits. That is my goal in this game. I think thats fun. You whant alittle armor shop thats fine. I want a Corprate Giant. ( hence "CEO" is my name.)
Now we get these dev's who seam to all be Moaists. Thay are going to wipout the advantages I have worked for. So the "casual" smith does not cry. I know the tpye. Thay have 3 med harvesters, no fusion reactors for power and no money to run them. Thay log on 2 sundays a month and wonder why thay make crap.
Well if the dev's want that to be the core of the economy after the CU. Look at Chinia from 1960 to 1980. And look at China now. Ware motavated people are rewarded.
But this is just a game. I liked your post it repesnted your side well.
Now actually when i was writing my post i was thinking that the people that should be most frustrated were the one's who wanted to make themselves a big business and haven't had the time to get there yet. But even with that frustration (which believe me i have it too) I think building the business from the groud up is the fun part. I think it's the journey to get there that's fun, not the destination. So I am taking an optomistic look at the CURB. It gives me a chance to rebuild it, and it's not like RL where there would be a huge financial burden with it and my livelyhood is affected by it, it's just a game.
And about the tinkering... i think that it limits it in some ways and it enhances it in others. Yes tinkering with experimentation will go down, but you can experiment by putting different layers in, and using more or less layers and segments in the armor. and also make different armor. I guess what i am really excited for is that i can make different armor, and it's not just Comp and Ubese that will sell, everything should sell now, so now i have a wide variety of different armor to tinker with.
Ok, so we're going from 2 armors to 3, yippee. A new skin isn't armor-crafting as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't involve me being a good armorsmith in any way, it involves me being a tailor. Newsflash for you: Tailor isn't that fun, there's a reason you see 10 armorsmiths for every tailor...
linusboarder wrote:
Okay i just wanted to say a few things about the CURB. I notice AS's are concerned with a few aspects of it, but i think there are some major flaws with AS right now and i think, from what i hear and see of the CURB, some of those issues are being dealt with nicely. In saying that I just wanted to state my point of view. I am not flaming anyone, or saying any viewpoint is wrong, but i just have a few questions, and points to make.
I admire you for your stance...mostly because you're likely going to get flamed to pieces as that seems to be the nature of most. So let me try to adress your points as best I can.
1. To think that the reaction is premature is unjust. One you're making an analogy between a newly created profession and a well established one. Unless you have the feeling that there will be a lot of people seeing the upgrade running out to become armorsmith's I fail to see your point. I've been consistent in stating if we don't voice our opinions now, it'll be harder to correct once it goes live.
2. I competed just fine asa ten point smith. Some ten points outsell some 12 points, why? because of the business sense you're talking about. A ten pointer can differentiate himself from everyone else and grow his business. In the proposed system he can't. Everyone is going to make virtually the same armor with the distinction being loot, so in the proposed system, it will be harder for that ten pointer to compete.
3. I'm not going to adress this much, because you've actually countered your own point. Point 2 reads that we should make it this way so it's easier for the ten pointer to compete. Point 3 reads that isn't the fun actually creating the business and making it successful. So then haven't we removed the fun by simplifying and allowing it easier access. If the fun is the struggle, removing the struggle removes the fun right?
4. Crafting should have different degrees of difficulty...you have your easy on one hand with little experimentation Tailor and Architect. Your middle difficulty droid engineers and chefs, and your high end difficulty, weaponsmiths, armorsmiths and shipwrights. Not every class is for every person. I personally don't like ranged combat. That doesn't mean overhaul ranged combat until I decide I like it.
5. I'm an armorsmith because it was not something everyone could do. It took a lot of research and a lot of knowledge. It was the mutal respect that armorsmith's had for each other, because there is some kindred spirit that believes in taking the path less traveled. And I enjoyed the sense of pride I got from a customer that took the time to send me an email saying how different and great my armor is compared to the others he bought. This is being stripped from me...Armorsmith will not require any logic, I won't have to learn how to best make my layers and segments. There is no pride because my armor will be just like everyone else's.
freedomwarrior wrote:OK maybe im missing something, but where in the faqs does it say we can experiment on durability. We have one line of experimentation, and that is resists. If I read the faqs correctly, it states condition and durability go hand and hand with this experimentation line. The lower the resists on the armor, the less the hinderance and lower conditions/durability. THe higher the resists, the more the hinderance and higher condition/durability. Now maybe I missed something, and If I have, please point me to where it says this.
I could be wrong. I have read it a couple times, but there is a lot of new info to take in there, so i may have misread it... I will check it out. I still think there will be some skill in finding the right balance either way (even though i would prefer to have the 2 experimentation bars)
Here's what i pulled from the Armor Crafting page:
Step 2: Armor Segments
Segments are the basic components of any piece of armor. At the "segment stage" a crafter may experiment on armor condition and resistances. An Armorsmith may also choose to incorporate up to four different elemental layers at this point. Armor Hindrances may not be experimented upon.
Ok So i read this as there are 2 experimentation bars, not just one. A condition bar, and a resistances bar.
Message editied to bring in the part from the Armor Crafting Page
Message Edited by linusboarder on 04-11-2005 01:20 PM
linusboarder wrote:
freedomwarrior wrote:
OK maybe im missing something, but where in the faqs does it say we can experiment on durability. We have one line of experimentation, and that is resists. If I read the faqs correctly, it states condition and durability go hand and hand with this experimentation line. The lower the resists on the armor, the less the hinderance and lower conditions/durability. THe higher the resists, the more the hinderance and higher condition/durability. Now maybe I missed something, and If I have, please point me to where it says this.
I could be wrong. I have read it a couple times, but there is a lot of new info to take in there, so i may have misread it... I will check it out. I still think there will be some skill in finding the right balance either way (even though i would prefer to have the 2 experimentation bars)
Balance is one thing, but let me ask you this. Will you really want to be a servant to your crafting tool? With this cu, all end products of armor are going to have to be hand made. I do this now on my shipwright and its no fun. I spent 7 hours this past sunday just making up complete ship parts to put on the vendor. In addition, I use to do my armors all by hand and doing 30 suits of armor with 4 crafting tools took me 6 to 7 hours of non stop item creation to stock the vendor. Now, I dont know about you, but I dont want to go back to that. I dont want to be a slave to my tools again, because it wasnt fun.
Im an armorsmith to provide a service to the community but I dont want to lose my sanity or be a slave to the profession. That is what these new rules will do. I dont mind the new addition, but dont take my factories away for number 1. For number 2, leave my experimentation alone. I dont want to be a clone smith. I say this because now its not based upon where i put my experimentation as its all in 1 line, but about the resources I use. DOnt know about you, but what happens if your off on vacation when that one uber spawn of dath fiberplast hits, or chormite intrusive ore(never even heard of this prior to this cu). I mean come on, I search my server last night to find this stuff and was lucky and found 100k of it on every planet. Took me 10 hours of searching, but anyway, I dont want it to be based upon resources fully, but about knowledge in where to experiment or what am I looking for, resists or condition. or maybe I want ham lowered. I currently carry all 3 types on my vendors, so after revamp now im gonna be just like everyone else.
You can say, well other smiths do this, but in truth, not alot do. Most smiths do resists fully and condition secondary. There is 1 or 2 that do hams, but almost no one makes armor anymore for hams that can be worn without buffs.
Keuller wrote:
I love the line "It's not just comp and ubese that will sell now."
Ok, so we're going from 2 armors to 3, yippee. A new skin isn't armor-crafting as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't involve me being a good armorsmith in any way, it involves me being a tailor. Newsflash for you: Tailor isn't that fun, there's a reason you see 10 armorsmiths for every tailor...
BINGO! Hit the nail on the head! With all the armors based off cores they've actually reduced the variety for armorsmiths. For the last few months, I've been collecting resources for all the different types of armor in anticipation of me crafting more than ubese and Composite. With this current implementation that's taken away.
freedomwarrior wrote:
Balance is one thing, but let me ask you this. Will you really want to be a servant to your crafting tool? With this cu, all end products of armor are going to have to be hand made....
I dont mind the new addition, but dont take my factories away for number 1. For number 2, leave my experimentation alone. I dont want to be a clone smith. I say this because now its not based upon where i put my experimentation as its all in 1 line, but about the resources I use. DOnt know about you, but what happens if your off on vacation when that one uber spawn of dath fiberplast hits, or chormite intrusive ore(never even heard of this prior to this cu). I mean come on, I search my server last night to find this stuff and was lucky and found 100k of it on every planet. Took me 10 hours of searching, but anyway, I dont want it to be based upon resources fully, but about knowledge in where to experiment or what am I looking for, resists or condition. or maybe I want ham lowered. I currently carry all 3 types on my vendors, so after revamp now im gonna be just like everyone else.You can say, well other smiths do this, but in truth, not alot do. Most smiths do resists fully and condition secondary. There is 1 or 2 that do hams, but almost no one makes armor anymore for hams that can be worn without buffs.
Actually i do hand make all my armor without going to factories, and i enjoy it a lot, but i understand your point that most AS's don't. I think this could be easily fixed with Armor Customization kits, and then you could still do factory runs of armor. Or just make some neutral stuff that matches easily with other neutral stuff. Blacks, Blues, Reds and Greens. I don't think it has to be the end of factory runs.
Now the next point is that buffs aren't going to be nearly as effective as they were before, so now that condition bar that was nearly useless in the current crafting sysem will be of much more importance (well hopefully, if the condition of your armor isn't critical then I definantly will have a much bigger beef with it)
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Also we're not going from 2-3 options, we are going from 2-9 options for armor. Before there was basically Composite and Ubese. Now there is Battle, Recon, and Assault cores, plus you can put in 1-3 segments in each Core, and from what i read it's not going to be like composite armor where you will want to put in 3 segments no matter what, there will actually be some skill in deciding how many segments go into each core and how to experiment on each segment, with condition or resists. I just see it as more.
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Kesslan-
First i never said it went from 2-3 (if i did i mispoke because i didn't think that) In fact above i said it's going from 2-9. Ok I am not sure i followed everything you said, so please correct me if i misinterpret, but here's what i got from your post. Even though in the current system you can make basic comp armor, it's really not that good so you really can't make it. It will be like that in the curb so people will only want the Advanced types of armor, since there are only 3 cores even though we technically have 9 options, 6 of them will be worthless. I realize you said a lot more than that, but this seemed to be the gist of it (again please correct me if i am wrong, and clarify for me)
But my point is that i don't think Standard and Basic Armor will be worthless. Yes people will want the highest resist armor, but it may be worth it to have an armor that allows you to attack faster. (For example in JTL i don't always use the capacitor with the highest energy, but sometimes i use one with a lower capacitance but a higher recharge rate.) My interpretation of what the devs have said is that they are making it so that Basic and Standard armor will become viable options. It seems that stuff that didn't matter much before (due to buffs) like HAM damage and speed are going to be really important post-CURB so as Armorsmiths we will have to pay attention to these and actually make basic and standard along with advanced sets of armor. This along with the layers in the segments to me really seems like it's increasing our options, not decreasing.
---Edited to add a reply to kesslan---
Message Edited by linusboarder on 04-11-2005 02:14 PM
linusboarder:
1. Your point didn't come out like that...with the clarification it makes more sense what you're saying. I would just point out that this is a totally unexpected change in philosophy. And the reaction now is just about right...outrage and rants at first, now a lot more focus on being constructive.
2. My point exactly...a lot of people don't try to compete. Those people weren'tcut out for armorsmith's. If I let that deter me, I would have given up a long time ago. Instead, I learned how to make triple protection armor without the best resources as a ten point smith. (Man was it heavy). If you look at what you're really saying, it's people look at the challenge before they really tried it and decide it's too big, so we need to make allowances for them. I spammed my butt off and I'm sure half the server has me on ignore. Location is far more important than having a 12 point suit. Armorsmith is unlike any other profession...at master, your journey begins.
3. Yes you need to have a quality product, but that's a function of how aggressive you are gathering resources, as it should be. Of all my gripes with the changes, the one I've barely harped about is the new resource requirements. I don't agree with them for the following reasons. There should be some layers you can create without named resources and as protection becomes more exotic by adding acid and other layers, the resources become more exotic. Two, the shell should be more than just an appearance. And three the number of resources and number of organics is going to cause prices to skyrocket. It's more the system that I'm worried about. This is minor.
4. I can agree with you on some of this. Here's an easy solution, make more items like syn cloth and armor padding. Support for the other crafters, that way they can make enough to support their craft and still have the less complicated system if they desire. I viewed the demand for armor as a reward for choosing the hardest profession.
5. I can't say I really agree with you here...the factory time is going to be enormous...if you're trying to stock everything, you won't be able to do anything else. I could really care less in ten points versus 12, because I can be functional either way, it's the knowledge of crafting armor that I believe sets me apart. Knowing that if I can single amazing 7 base and 5 special that I can use my second and third best resources to hit the same stats and that 70 base and 9 kin layer will round just enough. If I didn't have a suit, then I would figure out another way to get my results. Now there won't be any choices, just put the 2 points in the one area in the one subcomponent that allows you to have it.