Armorsmith Archive
Thread: The future of AS and all crafting professions (repost)
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Diango
Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:17 pm
#1
1StarNinja wrote:
With prices going up only the rich will be able to afford to buy armor or weapons or food after a while as people start depleting their cash from purchasing those because of the mission payout decrease.
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The most fundamental rule of business, especially in SWG, is that if you cannot sell something for as much as it costs you to make, then it is not worth making. This rule will hold true post-CURB as well as it does before.
I have great fears for what SWG 2 will do to the noncombat aspects of the game (particularly crafting, entertaining, and the player economy in general), but not for the reasons so far outlined here. Yes, being a Master Crafter yet also being a level 1 character and thus onehit incapped by anything in the wild will be a pain. But ultimately, that can be worked around. It is possible to get around it, generally simply by grouping with a high level character and thus gaining the level benefits. My fear is that it won't be worth working around.
Let me try to explain. I have been a crafter for all my time in this game, to varying levels of intensity. When I do serious crafting, I'm usually working for hours on end. Run this test, run that test, try different combinations to get the best out of the item I'm making. There's a lot of experimentation involved, and I don't mean fill in the bar and hit experiment experimentation. Then there is resource management, factory time on the experiments, and then factory time on the subcomponents, experimentation on product, factory time on products, vendor stocking, special orders, etc. That's just making product - that does not include all the time spent gathering the very best resources. This is, in short, a lot of work. Probably a lot more work than anyone who has not been a very serious crafter realises. But I have never minded doing this work - not only has the crafting system been interesting and challenging, but it has also been very lucrative. It's been well worth the time to crank out those few extra %, get those very special results nobody else gets, both in term of play satisfaction and creds received. And people were prepared to pay the prices for exceptional crafted goods, because they made a tremendous difference in what they could do. They could see new areas, kill new things, win more PvP fights, etc. The work I put into my craft made a very real difference in someone else's game, and the satisfaction their praise gave me, as well as the creds they paid me, made a very real difference in mine. That, ladies and gentlemen, is my MMO. That's my 'grouping', right there. That's been some of my most enjoyable interactions in SWG, right there.
If I could continue to make this same difference in the game with my craft, I would endure hundreds more incaps at the hands of Maulers. I am already incapped a few times a crafting session by spineflaps and Maulers around my factories/house when I put in a heavy crafting session - I would be happy to have to take a few extra precautions. But nothing I see in SWG 2 shows me that it will be worth those incaps to craft.
The above quote suggests that people will start to run out of money as prices go up. I doubt that will be the case. The inherent difficulties in crafting (surviving as a lower level character with aggressive mobs, not to mention the increased and more difficult resource requirements, including such things as Dathomir Fiberplast, Endorian Mollusk, etc.) will probably mean that crafters raise their price to the point where they feel it is worth their while to make, hence my statement at the start of this post. In the case of many of the high end crafts, that price will probably be rather high. Again, however, people would pay it if it was worth it - the SWG economy has shown that people will pay almost anything if the goods are exceptional enough. My fear is that the system in SWG 2 won't make any goods exceptional enough.
This is because of the level system. Essentially, no amount of equipment, weapons, armour, or food makes any significant difference in your capabilities - a level 5 character is in the same boat as a level 50 character. For both of these characters, a creature 5 levels lower than them is trivial, and a creature 5 levels above is instant death, regardless of your equipment or anything. This is the inherent principle of a level-based game - level is all. PvP is the same - the best armour on the server, the best weapons, the best everything, will make not one jot of difference in your PvP capability. You will still be unable to hurt a naked opponent with a CDEF weapon, if he is 10 levels above you or so. I suspect that it won't take long for people to realise this - they'll realise that all their equipment is meaningless as long as they match levels correctly in what they can take on. They'll realise that the most important thing they can do is not loot/buy themselves a bigger weapon, or a better helmet - the most important thing they can do is to increase their level, either by skill choice or by grouping. I'll reiterate - the single biggest factor, and by far the most important factor, in determining damage done and damage taken is not your weapon or your armour. It isn't even your skills. It is your level compared to your opponent. Even if you have a much bigger weapon, you will not do any significant damage to something with an edge in levels. That's it. If this weren't the case, why then would people suggest having a naked, level 1 crafter grouping with high levels to survive? Because that is the solution that the devs and others have suggested. That's the proof, right there - the crafter does not need any equipment to survive hits. He only needs to be grouped with someone to increase his effective level. Armour, food, etc. - all meaningless.
It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate that. If a level 1 can survive hits stark naked, simply by grouping, why should anyone need expensive armour/weapons/buffs/food to do anything? Why not just group, or find a way to increase my level? This, then, is the 'balance' to the professions that we are getting - professions aren't being balanced, they are being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't matter if you are Swordsman or Rifleman, all that matters is level. This might see some increase in variety of templates briefly, but not all skill boxes are equal - soon enough people will find the combination that gives the highest level, and then everyone will be that. This then is also the 'balance' to equipment - equipment is also being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't increase your level. For those that said we already had a level system, we didn't - we had a rough 'level' for comparison, but it had no game effect. In SWG 2, level is the biggest game effect, just like it is in other MMOs.
SWG is more than just combat. It is centred around combat, but it also is an immersive world, with real estate, an economy, and a thriving non-combat lifestyle. But because it is combat-centric, these thriving aspects exist mostly to support combat - we've all played with that for 2 years. What is happening in SWG 2 is that the non-combat aspects, particularly player crafted equipment, are being marginalised to have almost no effect on combat, certainly not enough effect for people to go to the trouble and time involved. This is being done because it is the equipment that made us powerful in the first place - the 90% armour, the buffs, and so on. SWG's own freeform, creative game design allowed us to do these things. But rather than tweak or balance what we can make, the design choice has been to limit that freeform creativity, and to make it almost meaningless in the face of a linear, easily controlled statistic - a character's level. And that is why crafting has some very dark times ahead - because they won't make any real difference any more.
This level system might be more easily controlled, but it won't be any less buggy or open to exploits than SWG is now. It won't need any less balancing. It will require even more dev-created content than what we have now. And it will do immense harm to so many aspects of this player-created world that has evolved for two years in the absence of levels. To try and patch on a level-based system to a freeform world, especially now, is wrong on so many levels.
With prices going up only the rich will be able to afford to buy armor or weapons or food after a while as people start depleting their cash from purchasing those because of the mission payout decrease.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most fundamental rule of business, especially in SWG, is that if you cannot sell something for as much as it costs you to make, then it is not worth making. This rule will hold true post-CURB as well as it does before.
I have great fears for what SWG 2 will do to the noncombat aspects of the game (particularly crafting, entertaining, and the player economy in general), but not for the reasons so far outlined here. Yes, being a Master Crafter yet also being a level 1 character and thus onehit incapped by anything in the wild will be a pain. But ultimately, that can be worked around. It is possible to get around it, generally simply by grouping with a high level character and thus gaining the level benefits. My fear is that it won't be worth working around.
Let me try to explain. I have been a crafter for all my time in this game, to varying levels of intensity. When I do serious crafting, I'm usually working for hours on end. Run this test, run that test, try different combinations to get the best out of the item I'm making. There's a lot of experimentation involved, and I don't mean fill in the bar and hit experiment experimentation. Then there is resource management, factory time on the experiments, and then factory time on the subcomponents, experimentation on product, factory time on products, vendor stocking, special orders, etc. That's just making product - that does not include all the time spent gathering the very best resources. This is, in short, a lot of work. Probably a lot more work than anyone who has not been a very serious crafter realises. But I have never minded doing this work - not only has the crafting system been interesting and challenging, but it has also been very lucrative. It's been well worth the time to crank out those few extra %, get those very special results nobody else gets, both in term of play satisfaction and creds received. And people were prepared to pay the prices for exceptional crafted goods, because they made a tremendous difference in what they could do. They could see new areas, kill new things, win more PvP fights, etc. The work I put into my craft made a very real difference in someone else's game, and the satisfaction their praise gave me, as well as the creds they paid me, made a very real difference in mine. That, ladies and gentlemen, is my MMO. That's my 'grouping', right there. That's been some of my most enjoyable interactions in SWG, right there.
If I could continue to make this same difference in the game with my craft, I would endure hundreds more incaps at the hands of Maulers. I am already incapped a few times a crafting session by spineflaps and Maulers around my factories/house when I put in a heavy crafting session - I would be happy to have to take a few extra precautions. But nothing I see in SWG 2 shows me that it will be worth those incaps to craft.
The above quote suggests that people will start to run out of money as prices go up. I doubt that will be the case. The inherent difficulties in crafting (surviving as a lower level character with aggressive mobs, not to mention the increased and more difficult resource requirements, including such things as Dathomir Fiberplast, Endorian Mollusk, etc.) will probably mean that crafters raise their price to the point where they feel it is worth their while to make, hence my statement at the start of this post. In the case of many of the high end crafts, that price will probably be rather high. Again, however, people would pay it if it was worth it - the SWG economy has shown that people will pay almost anything if the goods are exceptional enough. My fear is that the system in SWG 2 won't make any goods exceptional enough.
This is because of the level system. Essentially, no amount of equipment, weapons, armour, or food makes any significant difference in your capabilities - a level 5 character is in the same boat as a level 50 character. For both of these characters, a creature 5 levels lower than them is trivial, and a creature 5 levels above is instant death, regardless of your equipment or anything. This is the inherent principle of a level-based game - level is all. PvP is the same - the best armour on the server, the best weapons, the best everything, will make not one jot of difference in your PvP capability. You will still be unable to hurt a naked opponent with a CDEF weapon, if he is 10 levels above you or so. I suspect that it won't take long for people to realise this - they'll realise that all their equipment is meaningless as long as they match levels correctly in what they can take on. They'll realise that the most important thing they can do is not loot/buy themselves a bigger weapon, or a better helmet - the most important thing they can do is to increase their level, either by skill choice or by grouping. I'll reiterate - the single biggest factor, and by far the most important factor, in determining damage done and damage taken is not your weapon or your armour. It isn't even your skills. It is your level compared to your opponent. Even if you have a much bigger weapon, you will not do any significant damage to something with an edge in levels. That's it. If this weren't the case, why then would people suggest having a naked, level 1 crafter grouping with high levels to survive? Because that is the solution that the devs and others have suggested. That's the proof, right there - the crafter does not need any equipment to survive hits. He only needs to be grouped with someone to increase his effective level. Armour, food, etc. - all meaningless.
It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate that. If a level 1 can survive hits stark naked, simply by grouping, why should anyone need expensive armour/weapons/buffs/food to do anything? Why not just group, or find a way to increase my level? This, then, is the 'balance' to the professions that we are getting - professions aren't being balanced, they are being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't matter if you are Swordsman or Rifleman, all that matters is level. This might see some increase in variety of templates briefly, but not all skill boxes are equal - soon enough people will find the combination that gives the highest level, and then everyone will be that. This then is also the 'balance' to equipment - equipment is also being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't increase your level. For those that said we already had a level system, we didn't - we had a rough 'level' for comparison, but it had no game effect. In SWG 2, level is the biggest game effect, just like it is in other MMOs.
SWG is more than just combat. It is centred around combat, but it also is an immersive world, with real estate, an economy, and a thriving non-combat lifestyle. But because it is combat-centric, these thriving aspects exist mostly to support combat - we've all played with that for 2 years. What is happening in SWG 2 is that the non-combat aspects, particularly player crafted equipment, are being marginalised to have almost no effect on combat, certainly not enough effect for people to go to the trouble and time involved. This is being done because it is the equipment that made us powerful in the first place - the 90% armour, the buffs, and so on. SWG's own freeform, creative game design allowed us to do these things. But rather than tweak or balance what we can make, the design choice has been to limit that freeform creativity, and to make it almost meaningless in the face of a linear, easily controlled statistic - a character's level. And that is why crafting has some very dark times ahead - because they won't make any real difference any more.
This level system might be more easily controlled, but it won't be any less buggy or open to exploits than SWG is now. It won't need any less balancing. It will require even more dev-created content than what we have now. And it will do immense harm to so many aspects of this player-created world that has evolved for two years in the absence of levels. To try and patch on a level-based system to a freeform world, especially now, is wrong on so many levels.
OptAEON
Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:50 pm
#2
I agree, I have 4 SWG accounts, and one is a crafter, master Artisan, master merchant.
Already canceled 2 of my accounts, and a 3rd most likely in the near future , if the CU is released with the crap thats in it.
Opt
Thula
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:46 am
#3
This post has been deleted at least once, but deserves to be read by more people.
Kelloch
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:10 am
#6
Last night, after reading Thula's post about the conversation with Blixtev, I was trying to figure out what was the logic behind changing the resources needed, significanltly increasing the amounts, and adding so many different resources. That was the frustrating part......why can't they at least tell us why they chose to do this along with the other changes? At least then, we might be able to understand their motivations and where they are coming from. Would go a long way in easing tension I think.
But, I digress. While I was trying to figure out why they would make all these changes to the resources, I wondered...'What if its their intention to reduce the amount of armor out there totally?' I've read some posts where people stated that the Devs have said they never intended crafters to horde so many resources and churn out armor in factories. I haven't seen those statements myself, but if true, maybe that explains some of these changes.
Anyway, this is a great post and well thought out. I've passed this on to as many people as I could. I think it goes a long way to helping the non-crafter types understand some of our concerns.
But, I digress. While I was trying to figure out why they would make all these changes to the resources, I wondered...'What if its their intention to reduce the amount of armor out there totally?' I've read some posts where people stated that the Devs have said they never intended crafters to horde so many resources and churn out armor in factories. I haven't seen those statements myself, but if true, maybe that explains some of these changes.
Anyway, this is a great post and well thought out. I've passed this on to as many people as I could. I think it goes a long way to helping the non-crafter types understand some of our concerns.
Thula
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:18 am
#7
Kelloch,
I didn't flesh out all the details from my conversation with Blixtev, but you are onto something. Blixtev said amongst other things that:
- The organic requirements were required to support the Ranger / Scout profession (which we have no problem with. But its already hard enough to get hide as it is)
- It was never intended for people to be able to stockpile resources as we are doing today (the problem with this argument is that eventually you will reach a point where all stockpiles are depleted, crafting items will become scarce and prices would soar. Supply and demand, I can not really see where the problem with stockpiling is)
Kelloch
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:38 am
#8
Maybe they think stockpiling allows you the freedom to run factory sets of armor thereby 'flooding the market' with armor. I know I didn't factory run anything for a long time because I only had so much wooly hide and I didn't feel like paying huge amounts for it.
Skyshark29
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:54 am
#9
Thula wrote:
Kelloch,
I didn't flesh out all the details from my conversation with Blixtev, but you are onto something. Blixtev said amongst other things that:
- The organic requirements were required to support the Ranger / Scout profession (which we have no problem with. But its already hard enough to get hide as it is)
- It was never intended for people to be able to stockpile resources as we are doing today (the problem with this argument is that eventually you will reach a point where all stockpiles are depleted, crafting items will become scarce and prices would soar. Supply and demand, I can not really see where the problem with stockpiling is)
My issue is that rangers are going to have a harder time taking down the intended 'victim' of the harvesting than someone who's a complete combat template and didn't put the skill points into scout/ranger. If they didn't want crafters to produce in the current manner, why are there factories to begin with? They need to reduce the resource costs to craft the armor for several reasons...ie ppl are going to want more types now and w/variations on resists (high kinetic for critters/more baseline for pvp/npc stuff). The cost to make faction armor is bad enough in fp as is, like 19k faction for the person to equip it for the first time, not to mention once they do that, they can't resell it.
Vastar
Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:12 am
#10
Kelloch wrote:
Last night, after reading Thula's post about the conversation with Blixtev, I was trying to figure out what was the logic behind changing the resources needed, significanltly increasing the amounts, and adding so many different resources. That was the frustrating part......why can't they at least tell us why they chose to do this along with the other changes? At least then, we might be able to understand their motivations and where they are coming from. Would go a long way in easing tension I think.
But, I digress. While I was trying to figure out why they would make all these changes to the resources, I wondered...'What if its their intention to reduce the amount of armor out there totally?' I've read some posts where people stated that the Devs have said they never intended crafters to horde so many resources and churn out armor in factories. I haven't seen those statements myself, but if true, maybe that explains some of these changes.
Anyway, this is a great post and well thought out. I've passed this on to as many people as I could. I think it goes a long way to helping the non-crafter types understand some of our concerns.
I don't think they'll come out and expose their intentions. It seems clear to me that they'd mostly like to cater to people opening new accounts regardless of the effects on current players. We're already paying, they are not. Of course they'll work harder to please them than us. The goal for them is increased profits not rewarding loyalty... well, maybe rewarding is the wrong word, let's say, "not screwing over loyalty".
As for resource stockpiles not being intended, are you kidding me? How was that not supposed to happen again? If there was concern for too many high quality resources around why increase the spawns?
Kelloch
Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:19 am
#11
Vastar wrote:
Kelloch wrote:
Last night, after reading Thula's post about the conversation with Blixtev, I was trying to figure out what was the logic behind changing the resources needed, significanltly increasing the amounts, and adding so many different resources. That was the frustrating part......why can't they at least tell us why they chose to do this along with the other changes? At least then, we might be able to understand their motivations and where they are coming from. Would go a long way in easing tension I think.
But, I digress. While I was trying to figure out why they would make all these changes to the resources, I wondered...'What if its their intention to reduce the amount of armor out there totally?' I've read some posts where people stated that the Devs have said they never intended crafters to horde so many resources and churn out armor in factories. I haven't seen those statements myself, but if true, maybe that explains some of these changes.
Anyway, this is a great post and well thought out. I've passed this on to as many people as I could. I think it goes a long way to helping the non-crafter types understand some of our concerns.
I don't think they'll come out and expose their intentions. It seems clear to me that they'd mostly like to cater to people opening new accounts regardless of the effects on current players. We're already paying, they are not. Of course they'll work harder to please them than us. The goal for them is increased profits not rewarding loyalty... well, maybe rewarding is the wrong word, let's say, "not screwing over loyalty".
As for resource stockpiles not being intended, are you kidding me? How was that not supposed to happen again? If there was concern for too many high quality resources around why increase the spawns?
yeah..they certainly won't if its about reducing the amount of armor available.
Maybe its been a while, but I seem to remember long ago they would explain why they were making certain changes. It sure helps keep down misinformation and fear. Maybe those people aren't around anymore.
MataHairy
Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:37 am
#12
The AS aren't alone. They are doing the same thing to med and CM crafting. The new meds are completely optional (you can heal or poison without them), and they are expected to have a much lower impact (10-30% of previous). Yet, with the exceptioin of buffs, the new meds cost 2-6x the old ones per shot. The expected consequence is a very small market.
Also, when you look at the conversion, data so far is not good. Current enhances are being converted to stims, and components stay the same which will be useless in the new system. Even what is currentlyvaluable looted components, such asJanta blood and spider venom, will be rendered useless.
plonger
Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:56 am
#13
Well, we all can look forward to the next CU (crafting upgrade) that will neuter or make worthless all the combat professions in a year.
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