Armorsmith Archive
Thread: How can we make the CURB AS better? Enough take 2. Repost of original thread + Top AS issues
Page 1 of 4
ZionHalcyon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:41 am
#1
*Edit - removed a statement considered inflammatory the first go-round. Trying to learn from previous mistakes here folks.*
Look, I know I have rubbed many people the wrong way. I know part of that is my fault (frustration after living though a similar experience with Creature Handler back in the day).
So I guess what I am asking, is that everyone take a deep breath (including myself), and let it out slowly.
/deepbreath
Ahhhh...
Ok, now on to business.
Lets say that, no matter what, certifications will stay, mitigations will stay, hinderances will stay, hide will not be removed from the crafting process, bio-linking will stay,and no more resists will be added or removed.
Operating under those assumptions, staying completely ON TASK, and given what we currently know about the CURB, how would you improve it?
Keep in mind, things like "putting the old system back" do not apply here, because that would fail to consider the premise.
Please, it's really important to stick to that premise. Given all that, what would you do? Lower resource costs? Shorten factory times? Reduce the FP needed to equip a faction suit and bio-link it? Split the exp line into several lines? and How?
Please, keep the balance of the game in mind at all times, and outright ignore anyone who trolls or flames.
I put this post up, because I think if the community can take a deep breath and come to the table here with ideas and creativity, we can save this profession.
Given my reputation, I know this is asking a lot, and is sort of a leap of faith that people will actually respond like I asked, as opposed to dragging this post down in flames like all the other ones, but I am still passionate about Armorsmith, and I love it as much as the rest of you. I just feel that had we taken this direction in the first place, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. You might disagree, and that's ok.
All I ask is that people stick to the premise, and remain civil. And you might surprise yourself with the neat things we can come up with, and might be even more surprised when those ideas are fought for, and implemented.
Its a leap of faith, but for both of us. Trust me on this: follow through here, and not only can we leave these dark times behind us - we can begin to see a bright future ahead.
New:
I have included my responses to the top AS concerns, so people have a clearer idea where I stand on the issues.
White stuff is Okram's comments. My stuff in Yellow:
1: The new experimentation system.
It is extremly over simplified, and now is too easy to use. There is now no reason to become a 12 point smith anymore, in fact not even a reason to hold out your experimentations for amazing succeses. Since about 90% of the player base hardly notices armor condition, it is doubtful crafters will also, and only put it into them as an after thought. Every crafter will put as many points as possible into resists, and then if they have a point left over, throw it into condition and yawn. This now gives very little difference between one type of armor to the next.
The best proposed idea to change this, is to return to the system of seperating base resistances, and special resistance. This time, special resistance in armors is energy/kinetic. And base would be all other damage types. How about we split resistance experimentation bar into two seperate bars, Experimenting into the base bar lifts all elemental damage types, experimenting into the special protection bar lifts energy and/or kinetic based off of the type of armor it is. I think the best way would be a 75/25 distribution for armors that are supposed to have a bonus to energy or kinetic. And than a 50/50 distrubition for armors that are supposed to have equal resistances. This idea still keeps in the encumberance limits that you have implemented upon us, which I doubt there is very little leeway.
- Agree and have been behind this since day 1.
2: Resources, Resources, Resources.
Resources in the CU are all over the place. I can understand the need to change some things here and there, howerver there are two very large problems that need to be tacked. First, the huge increase in the requirement of organic hide. Especially with the lack of any attention given to ranger, organics are going to become more and more expensive as they are harder and harder to aquire. That means that the price of armor is going to sky rocket after the CU. It's already fairly expensive on live servers, but I would expect prices of armor to jump up at least 25% if not 50% when the CU hits live. Also, a lot of our named resources are not having as much use as we'd hoped. Some are starting to feel that the devs just wanted to make a clean wipe on our crafting profession because of the many vast changes. Named resources, some of which are extremly rare, are being found all along the layers, making one wonder if layered armor is even going to be a possibilty.
- This is something that I don't think will change. My impression is that they put all these new things in to get everyone on the ground level again. Therefore, people who could not compete well in the market before will be able to catch up. I know the older crafters will hate this, but from a game perspective, it would lead to a much healthier economy.
3: Being helpless to encumberance
The best of the best smiths on live have strives to bring armor that is both light AND effective. Now that dream is completly gone. We arenow a slave to the encumberance of our armors. If you make too good of armor, nobody will want it because it will slow them down too much. And the only way to make low encumberance armor will be to make low stat armor that nobody is going to want. This problem is further exemplified by us trying to fill armor for th ose who are working up their profession. If they just started they're gonna want one type of armor, then half way through they're gonna want another, then another, and then another when they master. Armorsmiths are turning into weaponsmiths with having to keep up a huge variety of stock, except with huge organics requirements in that stock, and costs of armor that is going to zap players of their resources, and get us labeled as greedy crafters even worse than now.
- This is something else that I don't think will change. All hinderances will become obsolete once someone masters their profession that is certed for that armor - it is all mitigated away. Therefore, experimenting on hinderances/encumberance would unbalance the game.
4: Factory Production
It looks now with a huge variety of enhancers at every stage in armor, that it is the goal of developers to inhibit mass production of armor. Yet mass producing is the only way we can keep up with demand. There's half a dozen types of armors available, which can all have identicle stats. So players decide what type of armor they want, that's great for the players. But there's no color customization kits like we thought there would be, this means that either players are all going to have the same colors of armor as the next guy (remember when you would go to the starpot and see everyone in comp, and in the same exact color). Also, with enhancers all across the board in every stage of armor, players are going to want armor that uses all these new thingies. Players have come to expect the best from armor on a regular basis. We where able to mass produce armor, and give it to players en mass. Now we can only mass produce sub par products, while players that really play the game, and expect to be uber leet (see: PVP'ers, hardcore gamers, Hard core PvE'ers, power grinders, and anyone that plays the game more than two hours at a time) will expect armorsmiths to bend over backwards to utilize all this new loot system that has been implemented.
- Totally agreed. Factories need to have downtime reduced, and adding armor color kits would be a boost for the economy. However,with regards to player expectation, that is going to be dealt within terms of a CURB adjustment period for everyone, so expecting a change based on that portion is unrealistic.
While it is nice that we can have a customization level like weapons, we are in fear that people will expect every piece of armor to be like this. Just like people only use krayt/acklay/gorax weapons when they pvp. This could become a logistical nightmare, especially in chest pieces, which require a huge number of components now, which will mean a huge number of loot components.
- Unfortunately, this is just speculation which cannot be acted upon until we are already in the CURB. We have no idea really what is "good" or "bad" absolutely, and until we figure that out, this really can't be addressed.
5: Armor Certification system
This is a nail in the coffin to some members of our community. Telling players they can't wear this armor because they don't know how to shoot that type of gun. We could have lived with wearing armor and accepting large encumberances if you whern't certed, and have less resistances, but to outright say you can't wear your armor, even armor you crafted yourself, is a slap in the face to us. And I have a feeling crafters of other professions feel the same way. I have a suit of RIS I made for myself, one of my finest achievments that I am hugely proud of, and wear on a regular basis to big events, that now all I can do is let sit on the mantle. Further, I wear padded armor for decorative purpouses, because I think it looks good, that I will never be able to wear again. It's like the devs are telling us nobody is supposed to be an all crafter, and that this game doesn't really want us around..
- This won't be changing, because it is what keeps the whole thing in balance. The CURB as designed NEEDS certification for balance.
6: Faction Armor
Well player crafter armor is all going to be pretty similar now that the expermintation line has been simplified, and if we have the same resources, will be completly mirrored. And getting faction armor takes as much FP as before, possibly taking more FP to get armor bio linked than it is to buy it in the current system if your side has enough of a discount on a certain planet. Soon players are going to wonder why we even made it craftable, when it's just turned into a huge faction sink that nobody is going to pay for when another type of armor is available, for cheaper, that doesn't require any FP to get bio linked. I can expectoto pay probably hundreds of thousands to get the fp from a smuggler so I can buy the schematics. Which I am going to have to add to the price, which is going to be put right next to pieces of armor with identicle stats at a lower price, which if a player does pay more for same quality items, will cost the player a large amount of FP to use. And then someone else can't wear their armor once it's bio linked if they say decided to switch profesions and give their armor that they are no longer certaifed for to someone else.
- I don't think bio-linking will be changing, because they want there to be a faction cost for faction armor, and so people can't just buy faction, get a ton or armor, and give it out to their friends when they are not using it, thus eliminating the need to really buy faction armor. Keep in mind that with faction armor, there is a need for it for it to tie into the FP system, so as such, crafting faction armor for anyone to use destroys immersion, as you can have imps wearing reb stuff, and vice versa without the bio-linking.
That said, they need to reduce the FP cost on the player end, to make Faction Armor viable.
Message Edited by ZionHalcyon on 04-15-2005 01:47 PM
Lauralon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:46 am
#2
Yet again level based damage scaling is ignored. Do you not see that if damage is scaled by level then armor will not be worthwhile especially given all the factors listen above? A suit now is estimated to cost no less than 750k on each server. Does 750k justify minimum protection from mobs your own level or slightly higher? Our cusotmers are mainly pvpers and grinders. With grinders being the substantially bigger market because pvp is dead due to jedi. So if grinders no longer need armor to grind, or rather don't need its minor benefit compared to its cost then aren't we ignoring the one factor that makes or breaks our entire profession?
ZionHalcyon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:49 am
#4
Lauralon wrote:
Yet again level based damage scaling is ignored. Do you not see that if damage is scaled by level then armor will not be worthwhile especially given all the factors listen above? A suit now is estimated to cost no less than 750k on each server. Does 750k justify minimum protection from mobs your own level or slightly higher? Our cusotmers are mainly pvpers and grinders. With grinders being the substantially bigger market because pvp is dead due to jedi. So if grinders no longer need armor to grind, or rather don't need its minor benefit compared to its cost then aren't we ignoring the one factor that makes or breaks our entire profession?
That was a cut and paste from the "Top AS Issues" from Okram, with my stuff in yellow. I think you might have something, but data needs to be collected on it. Would you be willing to do a few experiments to test it for me?
ZionHalcyon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:50 am
#5
bostonbaka wrote:
Take this thread and blow it out your a$$ zion.
Just to give everyone a heads up, this man is a troll with a previous greviance against me, because one of his accounts got banned, and now he is after me with his alt. He has no interest in helping out the Armorsmiths - he just wants to take shots at me.
There is a history there, just making people aware of it.
Gleemonkey
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:52 am
#6
ZionHalcyon wrote:
bostonbaka wrote:Take this thread and blow it out your a$$ zion.Just to give everyone a heads up, this man is a troll with a previous greviance against me, because one of his accounts got banned, and now he is after me with his alt. He has no interest in helping out the Armorsmiths - he just wants to take shots at me.There is a history there, just making people aware of it.
political posturing + spin.
TEH DEVS ARE TURNING SWG INTO EVERSTARWOWQUEST!
bostonbaka
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:53 am
#7
ZionHalcyon wrote:
bostonbaka wrote:
Take this thread and blow it out your a$$ zion.
Just to give everyone a heads up, this man is a troll with a previous greviance against me, because one of his accounts got banned, and now he is after me with his alt. He has no interest in helping out the Armorsmiths - he just wants to take shots at me.
There is a history there, just making people aware of it.
Uh huh, keep thinking im someone else.
ZionHalcyon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:53 am
#8
Gleemonkey wrote:
ZionHalcyon wrote:
bostonbaka wrote:
Take this thread and blow it out your a$$ zion.
Just to give everyone a heads up, this man is a troll with a previous greviance against me, because one of his accounts got banned, and now he is after me with his alt. He has no interest in helping out the Armorsmiths - he just wants to take shots at me.
There is a history there, just making people aware of it.
political posturing + spin.
If that's what you call telling the truth, so be it.
Monthigos
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:56 am
#9
Actually, with the way the current grouping system works, armor is useful. Each group member is brought up to the CL of the highest level guy in the group. Experience is granted relative to how the creature cons to the highest member. For example, if I group with a level 50 person then all level 50 creatures will con white. If we kill that creature, then I will get the same experience (plus group experience bonuses) as killing a white solo.
With that in mind, most people won't join groups just to kill whites if the experience is the same. They will want the benefits of the group to kill yellow and red mobs. Regardless of the per-level damage, a red mob could wipe out a tank pretty fast. They will need, of course tactics, and of course ARMOR. As far as I can tell, from what I've tested on TC, armor is very useful in group situations. And since the best benefits in the game now come from grouping, most people will want to band together.
With that in mind, most people won't join groups just to kill whites if the experience is the same. They will want the benefits of the group to kill yellow and red mobs. Regardless of the per-level damage, a red mob could wipe out a tank pretty fast. They will need, of course tactics, and of course ARMOR. As far as I can tell, from what I've tested on TC, armor is very useful in group situations. And since the best benefits in the game now come from grouping, most people will want to band together.
ZionHalcyon
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:02 pm
#10
Thula -
I don't know what to make of the group combat levels. On the one hand, I have people like you telling me it will unbalance the game and make armor not needed, and on the other hand there are others saying that armor worked great even when grouped.
So if I am getting 2 conflicting stories, which one should I believe?
That is why I would love some hard facts off the TC.
Ryche_Mykola
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:10 pm
#11
Kesslan wrote:
Rancor418 wrote:
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
This would be some of the main questions I have also. If we could get an answer it may settle a few down.
You get bruised toes when you try walking in the dark.
Aye he basically just restated what our main concerns have been the whole time through. And it's hardly the only list like this that has been made. Dispite what some folk claim. We keep making lists like this and they seem to keep being ignored by SOE.
I have a list in notepad that I keep adding things to. Very handy keeping ALL our issues together to make the devs jobs easier to see what our issues are so they don't have to run through thousands of garbage posts.
Brutus_Krylop
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:17 pm
#12
My comments in the traditional bold gold.
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
Agreed, 100%. IMO, the best thing to do would be to slash the complexity on segments and cores, leaving layers as the rate-limiting factor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
Yup.While Idon't really mind the increased organic requirements, the increased usage of things like gemstone give me pause. What really baffles me is the huge resource requirements on layers compared to what they are now. There's no reason for it other than to drive up costs.
Layer resources do not feel right at all, particularly the call for very rare, specific resources in the most basic layers. Segment resources feel right. Core resources feel right, although I wouldn't mind seeing the numerical usage decrease by another third or so, and calling for specific, planetary hide is never appropriate. Appearance resources feel just fine, although there is the concern with XP gain due to final assembly resources being so low (if you want specific planetary organics, this is the place to put them).
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
BINGO!
4.) Armor Color Kits.
Although I think this would go against Blixtev's stated preference for smiths standing around with crates and resources in hand, ready to make specific, customized armor on a whim, market realities dictate that we absolutely MUST have these available somewhere.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
Very true. Something needs to be done with them, although it's hard to figure out what should be done with them.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
Unless chefs lost their reliance on bioengineered tissues or droid engineers lost their reliance on master artisans, I'll have to disagree with that.
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
Another good question.
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
Will we? Totally unknown, and if I had to guess today, I'd say "probably not." Should they? ABSOLUTELY.
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
Yet another very good question. I've got several guesses, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
10.) Looted Components Conversion
While I'm not too concerned about the conversion, I am curious to see the full range of enhancers now.
DarthGoofyBunny
Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:22 pm
#13
"And the Great Turtle made multiline crafting with lines that really were in some sort of balance with each other, and saw it was good."
All I want to see is the ability to differentiate a product from the next person. The simplified crafting scenario is not something I'd accept as a premise. It's a deal breaker.
People can adjust to resources requirement changes and whatnot. It's a bummer, to be sure, it's going to throw away a lot of time invested, but going forward, an AS should be able to make something *different* and worthwhile to have. I love the original idea of balancing encumbrance against resists. I don't care what they are called, whether hindrances, encumbrance, etc, but I would want to be able to make something through effort and due diligence that is unique or relatively unique and different from what the AS next door might make. An ideal system lets me balance various strengths and weaknesses in conjunction with a customer's needs.
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