Armorsmith Archive
Thread: How can we make the CURB AS better? Enough take 2. Repost of original thread + Top AS issues
ConfusedRecruit
Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:56 pm
#14
There has been so much posted about the state of the armorsmith as pertains to the CURB,I feel like I am flogging a dead horse, but this is my biggest beef with the new system:
Resources...
I will start off by saying that I have dropped harvestors on, and killed and skinned virtually everything that had great resources for armor since the first couple months of the game. I do not have millions and millions of units of each of the best resources, but what I do have is a small stack (and in some cases, several stacks) of nearly every possible resource ever to shift in. Sure, there are a few holes, but I am proud of the fact that i can dig up something from August 2003, and in most cases remember where the harvestors were planted to mine it. With these resources, I have the flexibility to test and create anything I want, in any possible way. With the new resource requirements, 90% of the old named resources I have are now considered "Metal" or if I am lucky, can be used as "Ferrous, or Non-Ferrous Metal", depending on the requirements. I cannot see the need for wholesale changes in named resource needs. Look at the following example of heat layers pre-CURB, and post-CURB:
Pre-CURB:
25 Ferrous Metal
12 Polymer
10 Intrusive Ore
Post-CURB:
20 Ferrous Metal
12 Polymer
10 Kerol Fire Gem Crystalline Gem
14 Frasium Carbonite Ore
Can anyone give me aGOOD reason that the needs for this (and every other component) have changed?
There are two that I can think of, and also have seen tossed around:
1. The new resources have an effect on experimentation results, due to stat caps & experimental percentages.
2. Newer smiths are excluded from the scene since they do not have the wallet or resource depth to compete.
My answer to the first is: if you want the results to change, make a code change to accomodate it. before the base effectiveness could hit 5% on a layer, and experimental effectiveness could hit 15% on a layer. do whatever you want to these end results. remove the base, add a vulnerability, lower the effectiveness percentages, or whatever it takes, but let us use the resources we harvested.
My answer to the second is the one that I fear is the real reason: Make us all start out at a more common level by removing all the named resource needs and only keeping non-specific resources (generic polymer, generic aluminum, generic metal, etc) and add new named resources that we never would have had the reason to harvest in the past. This will let the newer smiths compete with the veterans. There are two flaws here. The first one, I already saw here, and that is that the veteran smiths have the capital to locate and purchase (and overbid) any existing stocks of good resources from existing stockpiles. The second flaw here (and the one that will probably get me some negative comments) is this: no matter where you go, real world or game world, veterans will have an advantage. It is called time served. If I had left the game for two months to play WoW, and had missed a few of the best resources ever to spawn, it would be my fault. the people who were here at that time and harvested it SHOULD have an advantage over me. They were here putting in their time while I was not. I would not expectthe game developersto reset the resource needs so I can get back on track.It is my opinion that you should have to pay your dues and serve your time. If you have the complaint that you can't compete, then maybe you need to lower your expectations until you CAN compete. there has always been a market for AUKs since the dawn of time. Sure, these are not flashy, and may not be much fun but they will surely pay the bills while you hunt and harvest newer resources for the high end gear. Basically, what I am saying is that where there is a will, there is a way. It should be up to you to make your own way in the game.
By saying this, I am not trying to exclude anyone. Crafters in this game are a unique breed. It takes a great deal of time and patience, and not everyone is cut out for it. If people are complaining that they cannot compete, they probably have not been at it for very long. If you polled crafters on all servers, you would find an Achilles heel for every profession on every server. I am on Radiant, as is Zion, and if you ask any armorsmith who has been making composite for any time, you will know that there was a Kiirium steel that spawned in the firstcouple months of the game, and if you did not have that one, you had to wait nearly a full year for one that would produce the same stats, and to this date, there has still never been a better one. Ask a weaponsmith how long they had to wait on Radiant to make T21's due to the lack of a Gallinorian Rainbow Gem. These are factors in the life of a crafter. I am sure there was a lot of whining by some during this time, as they pleaded for the developers to "create" a spawn to appease them, but it never happened, and nobody is the worse for it now.
I am not one of the people running around screaming to put it all back the way it was. I can accept any changes made in the way our armor works, and even in how it is made, but the one thing I find really disappointing is that all the time spent surveying and harvesting in the past is mostly lost. I have a pretty decent business, and make a decent profit, but I do not even come close to the bank accounts of most smiths. I do not do it for the money (ok, ok, we all know that I like credits, but I am serious here), and in fact, the thing I find the most satisfying (asI suspect most of the long-time crafters do) is that WhenI make something, I know It is the best that can be made. There is a bit of pride involved, butI believe I have earned that moment to sit back and bask in the glory of my creation 
I worked just as hard for that stack of the best resources as the guy who looted thelegendary weapon did, but just in a different way. Taking the uses for my resources out of the game is taking a big part of my profession away from me. An armorsmith without his resources is like a pilot without a ship.
I worked just as hard for that stack of the best resources as the guy who looted thelegendary weapon did, but just in a different way. Taking the uses for my resources out of the game is taking a big part of my profession away from me. An armorsmith without his resources is like a pilot without a ship.This is only my opinion, and maybe I am the only person who thinks this way, but that is my wish. Do what you will to the numbers and the overall makeup of armor, but keep the resource needs for the components the same. If by some chance this is a near identical post to someone else, i apologize, but you all know as much as i do that there have been a few thousand posts here in the last couple nights, and a few hundred of them have not been deleted (yet). I could not scan them all to see if my thoughts were already aired out in here somewhere.
Quizz
Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:25 pm
#15
TheFightingCorcoran wrote:
Zion is just trying to kiss ass to be AS correspondant. Just ignore him.
agreed, i'm sick and tired how he puffs his chest and thinks he's better then everyone else.
Moge_Tira_Tru
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:05 am
#16
just have a few minutes till I need to buzz back to work.
Faction Armor Certs:
I think this can change. No one is asking for full armor functionality. All they are asking for is that all players can at least wear all armor (outside of faction and possible BH/Mando and RIS like the current system). Many people wear armor for the look. I know I wear a Padded Shirt as my non-combat clothing. Keep the Emcumbs in place for balance but let us wear what we like.
Bio-Link:
Agree this will not change and maybe shouldn't. However I would like the faction costs lowered to make it more accessible to players and Armorsmiths.
...This is a great post. I'll add more in a few hours. Lets keep this up and keep moving toward change.
Faction Armor Certs:
I think this can change. No one is asking for full armor functionality. All they are asking for is that all players can at least wear all armor (outside of faction and possible BH/Mando and RIS like the current system). Many people wear armor for the look. I know I wear a Padded Shirt as my non-combat clothing. Keep the Emcumbs in place for balance but let us wear what we like.
Bio-Link:
Agree this will not change and maybe shouldn't. However I would like the faction costs lowered to make it more accessible to players and Armorsmiths.
...This is a great post. I'll add more in a few hours. Lets keep this up and keep moving toward change.
Kesslan
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:06 am
#17
Zion you've proven yourself not to be much better than people who come in and insult you. Since you simply continued to insult everyone else. Personally. I really dont like your attitude. And I hope you dont get the correspondant position. AS as a whole seem to hate you. And especially your attitude. That said to get it out of my system and entirely beside the point...
As far as armor certs are concerned. THey insist they are required for 'balance'. Oook. well why not then balance it according to cores and let any core have any apperance. And then give EVERY profession at least one basic certifcation. As anyone who ever gets shot at (And we all damn well do due to all the Agros) will need SOME form of protection and the PSGs honestly wont cut it in their current form. This would certainly give the diversity people want without limiting anyone as far as looks are concerned. It would also have the added benifit of preventing people from instantly knowing at least one of a certain persons profession just by their armor. Oh look! He's got armor X he's obviously a Commando! Or crap there's some one who's obviously a bounty hunter etc.
Hiding your capabilities is often a major thing as far as PvP is concerned. Certainly I know a few PvPers in my guild who constantly change their templates every month or, and never wear their profession tags just so the 'enemy' doesnt know what they are currently capable of. They'd still have some idea going by what ever weapon he pulls out. But they cant just tell by looking at what armor he's wearing before the fight has even started.
As for experimenting on encumberance. Yes that may be on purpose. But I also recall one of the reasons given for this was due to armor enchancement loot drops beign broken. So instead of fixing the drops to be balanced. They just toss out a whole line of experimentation. I mean at the very elast give us back experimentation with base. That way we can better balance protection. What If I want a suit that can protect me just as well against one thing as another? Cant be balanced you say? Not so. Make it so that you could do that but your resists would overall be far lower. Sort of like having a 60 base resist across the board piece of armor now. not at the cap anywhere. But still quite useable.
The other thing is countless people have said hey look this is how we could change AS in the post CU world an keep things balanced. But we havent once had an SOE rep come and say. Nice idea we might use this. Or. Well we appreicate your work but were doing it this way because.... Also I still think the whole 12 poitns should actually make a difference. I mean it realy doesnt make that big of a difference right now anyway. Compairing armor that I can make now. To what I was capeable of (or can manage when I'm not wearing my AS suit) I can get pretty much the same results. EXCEPT in HAM. A 10 point CAN pull off a tri 80 suit. You just have to experiment a heck of alot more. But there are entire threads explaining how to go about such things. And certainly since I made 12pt. My sales have yet to be affected. They remain on par with what they were when I was a 10 point AS.
Ryche_Mykola
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:08 am
#18
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
Rancor418
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:15 am
#19
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
This would be some of the main questions I have also. If we could get an answer it may settle a few down.
You get bruised toes when you try walking in the dark.
Kesslan
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:33 am
#20
Rancor418 wrote:
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
This would be some of the main questions I have also. If we could get an answer it may settle a few down.
You get bruised toes when you try walking in the dark.
Aye he basically just restated what our main concerns have been the whole time through. And it's hardly the only list like this that has been made. Dispite what some folk claim. We keep making lists like this and they seem to keep being ignored by SOE.
Rancor418
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:37 am
#21
Kesslan wrote:
Rancor418 wrote:
Ryche_Mykola wrote:
1.) Lower Complexity on Objects. This will lower the Factory Times for creating armor.
2.) Bring Resource Usage more in-line with pre-CU requirements.
3.) Get rid of level difference based damage multipliers. This is a nail in the coffin type thing. I don't even need armor to fight lower level creatures. Higher level creatures, there damage multiplier and regeneration is so high it doesn't matter.
4.) Armor Color Kits.
5.) PSG's - The visuals are cool. Everything else is garbage about them. Make them more powerful or VASTLY make changes to there crafting, they are too difficult to make for what they provide.
6.) Removal of Tailor Subcomponents - Only fair now, since no other Crafters really require as much inter-dependance, why should we now?
7.) Status of AS's that have finished the RIS Quest?
8.) Skill tapes in armor and clothing, will players be able to remove them?
9.) Armor Conversion - We got some blurbs on RIS, what about the rest?
10.) Looted Components Conversion
This would be some of the main questions I have also. If we could get an answer it may settle a few down.
You get bruised toes when you try walking in the dark.
Aye he basically just restated what our main concerns have been the whole time through. And it's hardly the only list like this that has been made. Dispite what some folk claim. We keep making lists like this and they seem to keep being ignored by SOE.
Yea I know
. Just trying to keep it on the positive side.
Wallid
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:51 am
#23
Zion, Buddy,
two Simple things. easy adjustable easy codeable. nuts, I could go there my self and do it for em ( for a fee of course), give us our 3 bars, Adjust the amount of hide needed and reduce the specifics.
Encumberance, meh keep it. Just a new way of saying HAM. Same by product different canned meat. As for Proff resitrictions. keep it. As a gamer and hobbiest game designer, I under stand way. Creates a challange for players and uses that Encumberance system. If they are going to have that Encumberance system, MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING. If a char wears a suit of heavy comp, he's going to be like a tank with rubber wheels, in sloopy mud.
I said keep experimentation to 3 bars, keeps the armors different. allows for different types of armor for different situations. other armor sutis like Ubese and Bone would still be used and in need By all.
LOWER resource reqs to about where they are now. same with specifics. From the looks of things they want to have us create multi level of armor. light, med, heavy . K fine. they also want good, great, primium, and platnium type armor. k, good But what they got to remeber it's not just mid to higher "leveled" players using this armor. it's going to be the 6000+ of new people out there too. Going to be hard for those players when Starter armor is going to be the same price of say a medium or large House.
Do dev's care about new players. from what is Shown unlikely. the only thing that shows a biit of kindness is the combat side.
Zion bro, Goina be honest, this CU is basicly "Over compinsating for the Lack of something."
With changes as is I am sure going to be making my complaints.
two Simple things. easy adjustable easy codeable. nuts, I could go there my self and do it for em ( for a fee of course), give us our 3 bars, Adjust the amount of hide needed and reduce the specifics.
Encumberance, meh keep it. Just a new way of saying HAM. Same by product different canned meat. As for Proff resitrictions. keep it. As a gamer and hobbiest game designer, I under stand way. Creates a challange for players and uses that Encumberance system. If they are going to have that Encumberance system, MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING. If a char wears a suit of heavy comp, he's going to be like a tank with rubber wheels, in sloopy mud.
I said keep experimentation to 3 bars, keeps the armors different. allows for different types of armor for different situations. other armor sutis like Ubese and Bone would still be used and in need By all.
LOWER resource reqs to about where they are now. same with specifics. From the looks of things they want to have us create multi level of armor. light, med, heavy . K fine. they also want good, great, primium, and platnium type armor. k, good But what they got to remeber it's not just mid to higher "leveled" players using this armor. it's going to be the 6000+ of new people out there too. Going to be hard for those players when Starter armor is going to be the same price of say a medium or large House.
Do dev's care about new players. from what is Shown unlikely. the only thing that shows a biit of kindness is the combat side.
Zion bro, Goina be honest, this CU is basicly "Over compinsating for the Lack of something."
With changes as is I am sure going to be making my complaints.
For all your Field Protections needs (as well as Reb Master Munitions Crafter ).
Thula
Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:57 am
#24
ZionHalcyon wrote:
(deleted to save the rainforest)
1: The new experimentation system.
We all agree.
2: Resources, Resources, Resources.
Resources in the CU are all over the place. I can understand the need to change some things here and there, howerver there are two very large problems that need to be tacked. First, the huge increase in the requirement of organic hide. Especially with the lack of any attention given to ranger, organics are going to become more and more expensive as they are harder and harder to aquire. That means that the price of armor is going to sky rocket after the CU. It's already fairly expensive on live servers, but I would expect prices of armor to jump up at least 25% if not 50% when the CU hits live. Also, a lot of our named resources are not having as much use as we'd hoped. Some are starting to feel that the devs just wanted to make a clean wipe on our crafting profession because of the many vast changes. Named resources, some of which are extremly rare, are being found all along the layers, making one wonder if layered armor is even going to be a possibilty.
- This is something that I don't think will change. My impression is that they put all these new things in to get everyone on the ground level again. Therefore, people who could not compete well in the market before will be able to catch up. I know the older crafters will hate this, but from a game perspective, it would lead to a much healthier economy.
I beg to differ. The new system favors rich AS with big pockets and 30k resource kits, they are the only ones that will be able to cater to the initial demand since some of the resources are quite rare. A side effect is that grinding has become more expensive (increased hide requirements) and takes longer time. Nothing that should encourage aspiring crafters.
3: Being helpless to encumberance
The best of the best smiths on live have strives to bring armor that is both light AND effective. Now that dream is completly gone. We arenow a slave to the encumberance of our armors. If you make too good of armor, nobody will want it because it will slow them down too much. And the only way to make low encumberance armor will be to make low stat armor that nobody is going to want. This problem is further exemplified by us trying to fill armor for th ose who are working up their profession. If they just started they're gonna want one type of armor, then half way through they're gonna want another, then another, and then another when they master. Armorsmiths are turning into weaponsmiths with having to keep up a huge variety of stock, except with huge organics requirements in that stock, and costs of armor that is going to zap players of their resources, and get us labeled as greedy crafters even worse than now.
- This is something else that I don't think will change. All hinderances will become obsolete once someone masters their profession that is certed for that armor - it is all mitigated away. Therefore, experimenting on hinderances/encumberance would unbalance the game.
I am afraid you are right in that this will not change. I disagree on the importance for balancing purposes, if they are concerned they should introduce hard caps.
4: Factory Production
We all agree.
---
While it is nice that we can have a customization level like weapons, we are in fear that people will expect every piece of armor to be like this. Just like people only use krayt/acklay/gorax weapons when they pvp. This could become a logistical nightmare, especially in chest pieces, which require a huge number of components now, which will mean a huge number of loot components.
- Unfortunately, this is just speculation which cannot be acted upon until we are already in the CURB. We have no idea really what is "good" or "bad" absolutely, and until we figure that out, this really can't be addressed.
This is where I fundamentally disagree. The purpose of testing is to identify problems, iron out bugs, test features and make improvements based on feedback. That is universal regardless of which product you are testing. There is nothing preventing us from testing this, and based on feedback from fighters, estimate the value.
If you discover a potential problem, flag it, test it and deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand and waiting for the CURB to arrive is not helping anyone.
5: Armor Certification system
This is a nail in the coffin to some members of our community. Telling players they can't wear this armor because they don't know how to shoot that type of gun. We could have lived with wearing armor and accepting large encumberances if you whern't certed, and have less resistances, but to outright say you can't wear your armor, even armor you crafted yourself, is a slap in the face to us. And I have a feeling crafters of other professions feel the same way. I have a suit of RIS I made for myself, one of my finest achievments that I am hugely proud of, and wear on a regular basis to big events, that now all I can do is let sit on the mantle. Further, I wear padded armor for decorative purpouses, because I think it looks good, that I will never be able to wear again. It's like the devs are telling us nobody is supposed to be an all crafter, and that this game doesn't really want us around..
- This won't be changing, because it is what keeps the whole thing in balance. The CURB as designed NEEDS certification for balance.
Again I disagree, the certification system is artificial and with all the cross-profession possibilities it can not be that critical. A simple fix that have been suggested numerous times is to allow everyone to wear armor, but to add heavy combat penalties to those that are not "certified". That will solve the decorative side of armor use.
6: Faction Armor
Well player crafter armor is all going to be pretty similar now that the expermintation line has been simplified, and if we have the same resources, will be completly mirrored. And getting faction armor takes as much FP as before, possibly taking more FP to get armor bio linked than it is to buy it in the current system if your side has enough of a discount on a certain planet. Soon players are going to wonder why we even made it craftable, when it's just turned into a huge faction sink that nobody is going to pay for when another type of armor is available, for cheaper, that doesn't require any FP to get bio linked. I can expectoto pay probably hundreds of thousands to get the fp from a smuggler so I can buy the schematics. Which I am going to have to add to the price, which is going to be put right next to pieces of armor with identicle stats at a lower price, which if a player does pay more for same quality items, will cost the player a large amount of FP to use. And then someone else can't wear their armor once it's bio linked if they say decided to switch profesions and give their armor that they are no longer certaifed for to someone else.
- I don't think bio-linking will be changing, because they want there to be a faction cost for faction armor, and so people can't just buy faction, get a ton or armor, and give it out to their friends when they are not using it, thus eliminating the need to really buy faction armor. Keep in mind that with faction armor, there is a need for it for it to tie into the FP system, so as such, crafting faction armor for anyone to use destroys immersion, as you can have imps wearing reb stuff, and vice versa without the bio-linking.
That said, they need to reduce the FP cost on the player end, to make Faction Armor viable.
Faction armor is nice, however low on my list.
You are unfortunately still avoiding the newimportant issue, how numerous people have found that armor has a minimal impact on combat. It all boils down to your (group) level versus mob level. Fortunately other peopleon the forum has taken an initiative to test this further. This, combined with new armor prices, has the potential to break the AS business.
In fact, it should scare all AS to go on the TC and test. I refuse to accept that anything is set in stone before the launch. With feedback and hard numbers (which we have provided plentiful on several concerns),there should still be room for changes before we hit the CURB...
I do feel it is time to give a little credit to the Devs too though. Blixtev has been a lot more forthcoming than I had expected, he has fixed a few things, and I hope is abscence the last days is because he is working flat out to solve our most pressing issues...
Message Edited by ZionHalcyon on 04-15-2005 01:47 PM
ZionHalcyon
Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:34 am
#25
Quizz wrote:
TheFightingCorcoran wrote:
Zion is just trying to kiss ass to be AS correspondant. Just ignore him.
agreed, i'm sick and tired how he puffs his chest and thinks he's better then everyone else.
Funny, whereare your constructive posts?
Oh, that's right, while I am trying to help my profession, you are too busy dishing insults.
JangoFett100
Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:44 am
#26
Quizz wrote:
TheFightingCorcoran wrote:
Zion is just trying to kiss ass to be AS correspondant. Just ignore him.
agreed, i'm sick and tired how he puffs his chest and thinks he's better then everyone else.
The part I like best is when someone provides useful information, he compliments and says "that's what I'm looking for", as if he is the one this is all being done for, and we are reporting to him alone.
And Zion, how about you get on test center and actually do some testing. All I see out of you posturing. If you want to be a correspondent, show you can get your hands dirty.