Armorsmith Archive
Thread: What's Wrong With Phrik
I agree, but if they had implemented this change before, with the old system in place, the experimentation bars would have gone from 54% to 91%, which would have made that weapon much better, in the old system. Of course they didn't want that so they didn't push it to live until they had an opportunity to make sure that the added experimentation didn't make weapons any better.
Hurlobacca wrote:
Garnax wrote:
I think you're on to something, but not that we wouldn't have noticed anything but the opposite. We would have been able to make much better weapons. Hence they waited until now so they could adjust the max cap at the same time, so that we wouldn't make too good stuff.
That's not necessarily the case.[...] Forget the fact that the bars now go higher on the crafting tool or that the values are being expressed in such a way as to convince the casual observer that you are making more powerful weapons now. It's impossible to compare the old vs new crafting system to determine whether you can make better weapons now than before,
Kilun wrote:
Ok, so the best resources for anything will now be recycler made items? Since the cap on all of that is 200 across the board? Unless I'm not reading something right, anyone want to give this a shot?
I think you are on to something, if they really wanted to make crafting easier to newbies, they should have just changed all schematics to require smelted resources.
The system evaluates the resource based on the stat range of the required resource, not the actual resource you are using. Smelted metals are a generic resources so if you were using them it would compare the stats of the smelted against the highest possible stats for that generic type. If your schem called for Copper Cond/OQ, then 1000 is the max for each, so your smelted would be rated as a 20% resource.
If your schematic calls for a named resource, like Polonium Iron, it used to be that the value of that resources was the average of the relevant stats, for weapons Cond/OQ, so if you had 107/973 Polonium that would be rated at 540. Based on the fact that Cond for Polonium caps at 144 (maybe 150 but it's never spawned higher than 144), you could determine that 107/973Polonium was 94% as good as it possibly could be, but the system would still recognize it as a 54% resource since everything was based on a scale of 1000, regardless of whether that resource was capped or not.
Now the system will look at each stat individually, determine it's % quality based on the range for that stat for that resource, and add the %'s together in whatever ratio the schematic calls for.
Garnax wrote:
I agree, but if they had implemented this change before, with the old system in place, the experimentation bars would have gone from 54% to 91%, which would have made that weapon much better, in the old system. Of course they didn't want that so they didn't push it to live until they had an opportunity to make sure that the added experimentation didn't make weapons any better.
Hurlobacca wrote:
Garnax wrote:
I think you're on to something, but not that we wouldn't have noticed anything but the opposite. We would have been able to make much better weapons. Hence they waited until now so they could adjust the max cap at the same time, so that we wouldn't make too good stuff.
That's not necessarily the case.[...] Forget the fact that the bars now go higher on the crafting tool or that the values are being expressed in such a way as to convince the casual observer that you are making more powerful weapons now. It's impossible to compare the old vs new crafting system to determine whether you can make better weapons now than before,
We're not technically in disagreement but I'll respond since the server is down. 
They never would have implemented a change in how the resources are valued without adjusting the formula that determines the crafting results. Trust me, if the CU had never happened and they decided to implement this change, yesterday's 54% Iron would yield roughly the same result as today's 91% Iron. Why? Well, first of all, they both represent roughly the same relationship between the resources actual stats and theoretical max.
I always got a chuckle when I read posts from people complaining about the gates on certain resources and how they wanted better Plumbum Iron, Rhodium Steel, etc. I understand what Blixtev said about how some resource gates are there to create a sense of realism (high Cond for copper, low cond for Iron, etc.) but those gates have always been an integral part of the equation that determines the quality of what you can produce. If the gates had never been part of the system, a T-21 would still have a theoretical max of 420 or whatever it was using perfect resources. The only thing that's changed is some people are fooled into feeling better about a resource that contributes 91% to the end result rather than 54%, regardless of whether it changes the end result, which it does not.
My only gripe with the new system is that by seperating the attribute stats and assigning a % value based on the theoritical max individually then averagingrather than adding the stats togetherthen determining the %, they have changed the value of the resources we have been gathering over the last two years. If this was an oversight then I'd like to see them modify the equation so that some of our best resources are not worthless now. If it was not an oversight to change the formula this way, then the only reasonable conclusion you can draw was it was intended as a means to level the playing field for newer or lazier crafters.
I dont get it, why make them gated and then make it totally irellevant in the crafting process. I i make something electronic and use a gated metal at its highest conductivity or i use an ungated metal at its highest conductivity i should htink that the ungated would be better. Doesnt make sense with the gates.
I think its good that we cant make everything uber if we just wait long enough for a good spawn.
moved to new thread
Message Edited by pwiffo on 05-01-2005 04:21 PM
this tool takes into account the caps on the resources as founf by lunarial
No more headaches over the math of finding the best resource :-P
Please, don't laugh at player's faces, this bug (this IS a bug) must be corrected asap.
Blixtev wrote:
Nice find, this was a change to crafting that was made back in Oct-Nov that didn't make it live until the rest of the code did. It seems to have been overlooked so I will give a brief outline.
Old Crafting Method:
Resources range from 0-1000, the closer you got the stats to 1000 the better the outcome of the item. The problemin this system was that many items use several different types of resources that could never approach 1000 in the stat called for in the schematic. For example the conductivity of iron is very poor.
Agun calls forgeneric metal(can have a high oq and cond), copper(generally has high cond and can have highoq) and a named iron(terrible cond max and can have a high oq) This gun will always suffer from that poor iron in itsimply because the cond range for thisiron is 50-120 for example. No matter how good the iron you can never craft a beyond a certain point as the iron gates it.
Why you may ask?
Well the old method just dumped all your resources into a virtual bucket, and based the stats on the sum total of the bucket.
New crafting Method:
The crafting scripts now look at the RANGE of every material for the slot it is going into. So if an iron that has a conductivity of 99 needs to go into the conductivityslot, the script looks up and sees that the max iron's Cond can be is 150. This means your iron is weighted as 99/150 instead of 99/1000. This means your iron is much more effective now.
With the tweaks made to the system we can now control the values of the slots in a way that makes sense, instead of the virtual bucket sum total method.
Sorry about not posting anything on this.
Eh, well you have a good point there. I don't know whether they intentionally made the new JtL resources uncapped or if they just forgot to code the caps into them. My guess is it was the latter.
WittyNewt wrote:
DeQuosaek wrote:
No, because realistically iron is not a good conductor.
_Monroe_ wrote:
Wouldn't an easier fixhave been to remove the resource gates so that iron could have good cond?
Sorry to quote you DeQuosaek but the highlighted word had me in in stitches
While I completely agree with your sentiments here and wish there were more real world parallels as it makes the world easier to understand for new players, uncapped JTL resources pretty much buried your realism theory with regard to resource stats. I have JTL steel with a CD of 1000
. In addition, in the post CU world with all of its artifical level system and restricted armor certs etc etc etcI think the final links to any sort of reality in SWG have gone.
Hurlobacca wrote:
I always got a chuckle when I read posts from people complaining about the gates on certain resources and how they wanted better Plumbum Iron, Rhodium Steel, etc. I understand what Blixtev said about how some resource gates are there to create a sense of realism (high Cond for copper, low cond for Iron, etc.) but those gates have always been an integral part of the equation that determines the quality of what you can produce. If the gates had never been part of the system, a T-21 would still have a theoretical max of 420 or whatever it was using perfect resources. The only thing that's changed is some people are fooled into feeling better about a resource that contributes 91% to the end result rather than 54%, regardless of whether it changes the end result, which it does not.
Took a couple of pages but I'm getting it now. E.g. In the old system a T-21 was cappedtwo ways, with all 1000 stats it would do 500 damage, but due to resource gates it could only be experimented to 400. In the new system perfect resources are possible but the rifle itself is capped at 400, but you can't see the 400 since the CU changed all the numbers. All we get as crafters is a lot of hassle managing resources and a warm fuzzy feeling experimenting up to 100%.
This could be checked by making an item that could never be 100% under the new system. The stats should be better then a converted one.