Armorsmith Archive
Thread: A close look at just how much armor blocks in the CU
TitanTen wrote:
Meplorium wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Don't kid yourself, people aren't so foolish to by a fluffed number. If the gain is .5% damage reduced displayed as 500, then people will not bother with it, just like most looted armor enhancers. The effect will be know and people will evaluate the items correctly dispite any smoke screen.well the 500 works out to about 5% in lower armors, but only about .2% in high level armors...
The attack of diminishing returns. If they make the point enhancements high enough to affect elite armor, then they will have DRASTIC effects on lower armors.
Say you loot a 1500 kinetic point krayt scale. Put that in a basic recon core and you get a jump from 1248 to 2748, percentage wise thats a jump from 12% to around 25%. Put it in an advanced assault core and you go from 6944 to 8444, or 52% to around 56%.
This is why you can only use basic segments in lower level armors and i doubt segment enhancers will be usable in for basic segments. But thats purely speculation on my part.
Novock wrote:Does it matter much? Just being honest here but in system that allows level to dictate dmg taken your level has far more to do with the dmg you take than armor or any defense. IN the curent System a full combat template verse a mix template, we'll use swordsman/armorsmith for example, will be 50 levels higher. The full combat template can wear no armor the swordsmen/armorsmith can be in fullarmor and will most likely still be one shot incapped with current dmg modifiers.
In the system its seems armor, strength of weapons, foods and strategy will only matter when fighting something the same level. Unless the dmg multipliers are removed armor is not needed anyway as long as you fight critters your level.
So we are seeing a system like evry other system outhere where level is all that matters. So much for the idea if including everyone unless you are full combat template you can forget about PvP unless you are grped with someone eklse to raise your level. And then when you throw Jedi into the mix and their level is that much higher from FRS who ever is in there grp will be untouchable but a grp of common full template combat proffession forcing them to "must have" a high level jedi.
The dmg mulitpliers will kill PvP.
I think PvP was covered, but I will respond to your PvE theories. The damage multipliers given to MOBs against lower level PCs are scaring a lot of people. I understand this, because it is scary. We simply don't have the basis in testing yet to know how well a Crafter in Live will survive while doing simple things like running harvesters.
Getting these armor numbers provide hope for ArmorSmiths, rather than forecasting their doom, in my opinion.
I know we have goten used to 90% damage reductions, but that was in a system where damage was not scaled and extremely high level armor, buffs, and foods were the solution when attacking extremely high level MOBs. Now, though, armor will provide a way for Combat classes to go up against MOBs of higher levels than they have any right to attack and still come out on top - a 60% damage reduction, which I believe is what a 'decent' to 'good' AS will produce, is nothing to laugh at in this system. Armor will also be the way a Pikeman survives against a horde of MOBs while filling his/her role as a tank against multiple enemies. Armor will be the way a Pistoleer/CM or Rifleman/Ranger survives when a random creature decided to break from the tank and puts a few hits into the ranged and support players. With the Mitigation provided by class skills, I don't see people skipping armor and relying on combat level, I see people using appropriately built armor, based on their skill progression, when they can in an attempt to maximize their defensive capability while minimizing negative effects.
Shona
Blixtev wrote:
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Fair enough, but the statement in gold bothers me a bit. It almost seems as if the new armor-enhancing loot drops are ... designed to be disingenuous ... particularly in light of your comment a while back that smiths will distinguish themselves by using looted enhancers. If the looted enhancers have only a marginal effect due to the system of diminishing returns, no one is going to bother using them ... which takes us back to the problem of smiths being unable to distinguish themselves under the new system.
A small enhancer might be worthwhile on the Basic or Standard end of the armor spectrum, but since the vast majority of folks will be mastering professions and using Advanced Armor, custom jobs for armor sets that will only get a few days' use before being discarded for something better seems like a waste of my time.
A few months ago, I created a reference for my guildmates that I entitled, "Why Your Loot Sucks." Though it mainly focused on weapon components and compared what can be crafted to what normal loot drops are, the same principles also applied for armor loot -- just not worth using. Now, I'll have to explain to my guildmates and other customers (for a totally made up example) ... "While your +600 Energysharnaff scale is pretty nice as far assharnaff scales go,itwould really only give you a 0.5% boost to your damage reduction, so when you factor in the special order time and cost, you're better off justgrabbing a stock Advanced Recon suit from my vendor over there.The funny thing is that ifI were to use it for a basic suit, it'd add about 6%, but no one uses those suits. Oh well!"
The real unfortunate thing is that I don't see a particularly easy solution around this problem.
TitanTen wrote:
Yeah i agree, but knowing why it is in there makes it much more acceptable to me. Especially with the new non-linear formula having percentages on enhancments would be potentionally game breaking, since it would break the max ceiling of the formula.
Also having 1 system instead of 2 is always less complicated. If you had two systems (points and percentages) then it would make AS a lot more complicated (and not in a good way). But having the point system we have to explain it to customers...
I suppose you're right -- in oneform or another, the armor rating numbers have to be visible by the general public, and the onus will fall on us to explain to everyone what the new numbers mean. Heh,if youthought explaining the AP/AR system to some of the more intellectually-challenged members of the community was hard, wait until you have to explain diminishing returns and quadratic formulae. 
There would be a way around it, though ... I just had visions of an armor loot system similar to Jedi crystal / pearl identification, where only Master Armorsmiths could see the hidden rating numbers on the enhancers.
Customer: "Hey Fahoo! Can you ID these scales for me????"
Me: "Uhh, sure, just throw it up in the trade window . . . hmm, looks like quality scales."
Come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't even mention that. 
Blixtev wrote:
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Hi Blixtev,
I wonder, is there anything know how slicing armor will go in CU?
Im mean, under the new points system with the non-linear protection. Will slicing be made on percentage of the points? And is there a hard cap (10000 point armor slice useless?) And if not, hows protection % go above 10000?
If you could share the time, plz post your answers in the "Closer look to armor in CU thread"
Thank you so much for taking your time an visiting our forums!!
Sehera
Sehera wrote:
I wonder, is there anything know how slicing armor will go in CU?
Im mean, under the new points system with the non-linear protection. Will slicing be made on percentage of the points? And is there a hard cap (10000 point armor slice useless?) And if not, hows protection % go above 10000?
If you could share the time, plz post your answers in the "Closer look to armor in CU thread"
Thank you so much for taking your time an visiting our forums!!
Sehera
Sehera wrote:
Here is alink for a Stats vs Protection Diagramm based on Okrams values.
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=236658&poll_id=0&warned=y
as you will see, the max protection armor will grant based on this values is roughly littel over 60% maybe 65% at most
Sehera
bah, someone who can still do the math
TitanTen wrote:
Sehera wrote:
Here is alink for a Stats vs Protection Diagramm based on Okrams values.
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=236658&poll_id=0&warned=y
as you will see, the max protection armor will grant based on this values is roughly littel over 60% maybe 65% at most
Sehera
Yeah i was working on making that same graph. I think that as you plot it out the maximum protection is going to be 60% at 10000 points. Which is in my mind stupid as a TKM already gets 60% innate armor, which will be "impossible" for us to acheive in normal play.
The formula just looks a simple inverse parabolic formula designed to garner diminishing returns on armor. Why they put the point system in is beyond me if they just made a max of 60% reduction.
I have already pointedout that the cap on armor value by experimentation is 7200 points. The opposing bonus/malus of Reconnaicance and Assault caps at 8200/6200. So without any high impact enhancers, we will never see 10000 point armor.
See my post about the experimentation formula:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=84015
Sehera wrote:
Here is alink for a Stats vs Protection Diagramm based on Okrams values.
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=236658&poll_id=0&warned=y
as you will see, the max protection armor will grant based on this values is roughly littel over 60% maybe 65% at most
Sehera
A zero intercept makes more sense for the data (zero protection at 0 armor).Forcing the intercept to zero gives,
Protection = 0.0109x - 4.77e-7x^2 where x = armor R2 = 0.999
These numbers are close enough to make me wonder if the formula isnt: Protection = 0.011x - 5.0e-7 x^2
with the decimals truncated.
Either formula gives maximum of 60 protection for 10000 armor.
No, Im not an armorsmith, just a crafter with a spreadsheet...
Message Edited by MataHairy on 04-16-2005 01:28 AM
Ajo79 wrote:
These numbers confirm the little testing I've done so I believe them. Frankly I think the current resists are pretty ok. Armor helps, but they are not uber. Good work.
But the 4 figure numbers doesn't realy make sense. Please bring back Percentages, since everything should be easy and accessable after CURB, correct?
Now bring back the old crafting system.
Arem wrote:
I have already pointedout that the cap on armor value by experimentation is 7200 points. The opposing bonus/malus of Reconnaicance and Assault caps at 8200/6200. So without any high impact enhancers, we will never see 10000 point armor.
See my post about the experimentation formula:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=84015
Yes i read that but what we were saying is the theoretical max to armor is 10000 points and 60% resists. The actual attainable value is nearly always less than the theoretical max, in any testing. I am sure they did this to allow for slicing and enhancements, but I am almost positive something sliped through the cracks and will allow >10000 armor.