Armorsmith Archive
Thread: A close look at just how much armor blocks in the CU
Blixtev wrote:
TitanTen wrote:
Sehera wrote:Here is a link for a Stats vs Protection Diagramm based on Okrams values.http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=236658&poll_id=0&warned=yas you will see, the max protection armor will grant based on this values is roughly littel over 60% maybe 65% at mostSeheraYeah i was working on making that same graph. I think that as you plot it out the maximum protection is going to be 60% at 10000 points. Which is in my mind stupid as a TKM already gets 60% innate armor, which will be "impossible" for us to acheive in normal play.
The formula just looks a simple inverse parabolic formula designed to garner diminishing returns on armor. Why they put the point system in is beyond me if they just made a max of 60% reduction.
Before "TKA's get 60% armor" becomes folklore I want to point out that is incorrect. The TKA + armor translates into 6000 armor(still tweaking this number).
Nice to see the number crunchers have already shown the end balance of armor stats.
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
Okram2k wrote:
guys try to keep flaming out of this thread, I'd hate to see this one get deleted
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Message Edited by Effulgence on 04-15-2005 11:25 PM
Blixtev wrote:
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Ok fair enough, but the formula you are using means in higher end armor 200-500 extra points would mean almost nothing but for show. Just an observation.I know that balance between hindrances and resists are a major concern so having higher point enhancements would allow low level armor to achieve hi level resists, but using lower point enhancements will make no difference in high level armor.
oh and by the way, thank you for finally explaining one of the most intriguing questions we have had. I think I can safely speak for the entire community in saying more of this quality communication would do wonders for the problems we have been having around here.
TitanTen wrote:
While your hear though, care to explain the reasoning behind the point system? Its a little confusing since the points are pre-calculation numbers it seems. Wouldnt it just be easier and more simple to have the points hidden and have the resists percentages shown? Other wise will be explaining to everyone who buys armor about the calculations involved...
I can see both sides of this ...
One the one hand, our nifty new four-digit armor rating makes calculating out potential armor builds pretty simple, particularly since we now get to see "beyond the decimal." Conversely, not having the traditional percentage reduction statistic is going to lead to mass confusion on the consumer's end.
The latter point far outweighs the former one in the end, I think. Perhaps the best solution would be to retain the new four-digit number up through the core stage, and then convert it directly to the new number upon final appearance assembly. Though this might confuse crafters who don't necessarily look into the numbers, it's probably the best solution for the largest number of people.
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
TitanTen wrote:
While your hear though, care to explain the reasoning behind the point system? Its a little confusing since the points are pre-calculation numbers it seems. Wouldnt it just be easier and more simple to have the points hidden and have the resists percentages shown? Other wise will be explaining to everyone who buys armor about the calculations involved...
I can see both sides of this ...
One the one hand, our nifty new four-digit armor rating makes calculating out potential armor builds pretty simple, particularly since we now get to see "beyond the decimal." Conversely, not having the traditional percentage reduction statistic is going to lead to mass confusion on the consumer's end.
The latter point far outweighs the former one in the end, I think. Perhaps the best solution would be to retain the new four-digit number up through the core stage, and then convert it directly to the new number upon final appearance assembly. Though this might confuse crafters who don't necessarily look into the numbers, it's probably the best solution for the largest number of people.
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
TitanTen wrote:
While your hear though, care to explain the reasoning behind the point system? Its a little confusing since the points are pre-calculation numbers it seems. Wouldnt it just be easier and more simple to have the points hidden and have the resists percentages shown? Other wise will be explaining to everyone who buys armor about the calculations involved...
I can see both sides of this ...
One the one hand, our nifty new four-digit armor rating makes calculating out potential armor builds pretty simple, particularly since we now get to see "beyond the decimal." Conversely, not having the traditional percentage reduction statistic is going to lead to mass confusion on the consumer's end.
The latter point far outweighs the former one in the end, I think. Perhaps the best solution would be to retain the new four-digit number up through the core stage, and then convert it directly to the new number upon final appearance assembly. Though this might confuse crafters who don't necessarily look into the numbers, it's probably the best solution for the largest number of people.
totally agree on that...
as iam not a crafting grinder i couldn test out crafting armor yet... but I suppose the points are linear in experimentation... (and maybe cummulative in layers?) well, best would be to have this linear advancement thru out till core... and on final appearance assembly you get your precentages...
But iam pretty sure, this depends on where the points go into the combat calculations or the associated percentages... As i would guess, rewriting the combat algos for using % instead of points, or vice versa, whereas non linear functions are involved, may prove to be tricky
Sehera
Novock wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
TitanTen wrote:
Sehera wrote:
Here is alink for a Stats vs Protection Diagramm based on Okrams values.
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=236658&poll_id=0&warned=y
as you will see, the max protection armor will grant based on this values is roughly littel over 60% maybe 65% at most
Sehera
Yeah i was working on making that same graph. I think that as you plot it out the maximum protection is going to be 60% at 10000 points. Which is in my mind stupid as a TKM already gets 60% innate armor, which will be "impossible" for us to acheive in normal play.
The formula just looks a simple inverse parabolic formula designed to garner diminishing returns on armor. Why they put the point system in is beyond me if they just made a max of 60% reduction.
Before "TKA's get 60% armor" becomes folklore I want to point out that is incorrect. The TKA + armor translates into 6000 armor(still tweaking this number).
Nice to see the number crunchers have already shown the end balance of armor stats.
Does it matter much? Just being honest here but in system that allows level to dictate dmg taken your level has far more to do with the dmg you take than armor or any defense. IN the curent System a full combat template verse a mix template, we'll use swordsman/armorsmith for example, will be 50 levels higher. The full combat template can wear no armor the swordsmen/armorsmith can be in fullarmor and will most likely still be one shot incapped with current dmg modifiers.
In the system its seems armor, strength of weapons, foods and strategy will only matter when fighting something the same level. Unless the dmg multipliers are removed armor is not needed anyway as long as you fight critters your level.
So we are seeing a system like evry other system outhere where level is all that matters. So much for the idea if including everyone unless you are full combat template you can forget about PvP unless you are grped with someone eklse to raise your level. And then when you throw Jedi into the mix and their level is that much higher from FRS who ever is in theregrp will be untouchable but a grp of common full template combat proffession forcing them to "must have" a high level jedi.
The dmg mulitpliers will kill PvP.
Blixtev wrote:
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Don't kid yourself, people aren't so foolish to by a fluffed number. If the gain is .5% damage reduced displayed as 500, then people will not bother with it, just like most looted armor enhancers. The effect will be know and people will evaluate the items correctly dispite any smoke screen.
The idea here is to set an unattainable theoretical maximum that is balanced in the entire system. This was accomplished by using a linear number for crafting purposes that translates, using a parabolic curve, to an effectiveness number that can not go over a certain predetermined amount. The result is an applied Law of Diminshing Returns, so that getting your armor rating from 4000 to 4500 provides a larger boost to end-result effectiveness than the boost provided by getting the armor rating from 4500 to 5000.
What the Economy may find is that most Armorsmiths will tend to produce armor in a certain range, based considerably on the resources available on a per server basis. The truly dedicated, though, will be able to create armor with better ratings by using the absolute best resources available and throwing in all the additional components possible (in the form of loot drops, etc). The difference between 'good' armor and 'great' armor will not be on the linear scale of the armor rating, but 'great' armor *will* be better than 'good' armor, and I think most servers have proven that players will pay for a premium product.
No matter how amazing the resources used, no matter how many amazing loot drops added into the mix, no matter how many amazing successes achieved during crafting, every piece of armor in the game will be balanced in the combat system. At the same time though, using those amazing resources, amazing loot drops, and getting amazing successes will add a little more to the armor, pushing that theoretical maximum as far as you can.
My thoughts, anyway.
Shona
Meplorium wrote:
Blixtev wrote:
TheBlacknight15 wrote:
You would think the number crunchers over at SOE would have known this before hand...
We do, it's just always nice to know the formula is correct.
A question a bit high up about why change it to points instead of percentages was asked. Using points allows us to put in more methods of advancement and enhancements as time go by without ending up like the old system. A 200-500 enhancement seems nicer on the surface than a .2% to .5% gain would.
Don't kid yourself, people aren't so foolish to by a fluffed number. If the gain is .5% damage reduced displayed as 500, then people will not bother with it, just like most looted armor enhancers. The effect will be know and people will evaluate the items correctly dispite any smoke screen.
well the 500 works out to about 5% in lower armors, but only about .2% in high level armors...
The attack of diminishing returns. If they make the point enhancements high enough to affect elite armor, then they will have DRASTIC effects on lower armors.
Say you loot a 1500 kinetic point krayt scale. Put that in a basic recon core and you get a jump from 1248 to 2748, percentage wise thats a jump from 12% to around 25%. Put it in an advanced assault core and you go from 6944 to 8444, or 52% to around 56%.