Armorsmith Archive
Thread: The real problem
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
SmedleyLlama wrote:
With all due respect... I never mentioned buffs. In fact if you go back and look at every post I've ever made on this subject you will find I have never mentioned buffs as necessary.
BF has been my personal crusade.
But you did
SmedleyLlama wrote:
And that is why the Buff Bot first came into being.
Hehehe.. That's what I get for trying to keep up with current terminology.
Shall we split hairs further and say that I mentioned the bot but never the buff. 
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
While yes, this will ensure that I and others will always have Mind buffs. It does nothing to help the Entertainer profession. You shouldn't need to change guilds just to find an Entertainer. It's not like that for other professions. Plus us with Entertainer alts don't play 23/7 either.
The entertainer professions will be helped by not having to compete with buffbots. We will be helped by the lower about of AFKers, and by the fact that people can assume that any Entertainer they se is in fact at the keyboard and not AFK. And thus only a "/tt" away from a mind buff.
Your version works as well, but could be tricky because what if soembody with really crappy buff buffed you and you didn't want it? They would overwrite your old ones. If they had to be better, then were exactly where we are now.
It would require some form of concert system like ID, yes. But I dough that would be difficult to make for the devs. That it has not already been implemented this way is something to be pondered, I mean that is how I would have made it in the first place.
The problem is that any profession can soclialize. I never shut up in our voice channel or guild chat. A lot of socializers don't play Entertainers. The Entertainer professions need more of a reason to play then just socializing, you can do that in any profession.
Entertainers are also supporter charters, our game mechanics side is about helping others. That is properly why you find fewer entertainers the say, TKA's
I am all for adding more contend to the entertainer classes, more things for us to do, and more ways for us to interact with other players and the game. But we have to be carefully not to give something to the class that will attract other play styles. If people start to become entertainers because they was to say, make thair own racetrack, and not because they wand to entertain, then nothing is achieved.
If there indeed are to few entertainers SOE needs to create contend and tools for entertainers that will attract community minded people who like to help others. The buffbots tried to solve the lack of entertainers with, taking something away from the ones that was left? it is any wonder that many entertainers now say "as so what" when the former buffbot uses complain about not being able to get a buff.
No, I say that everybody is EQUALLY important. You don't make 2 professions happy by making 10 unhappy, that doesn't make sense. You find a fix that keeps everybody happy. When I propose a bug or system fix on the Fencer, Rifleman, or DE boards, I always ensure it doesn't affect other people negativly. Why should I pass my problems on to others?
Lets take the "vehicle repaired bug". Its fix was implemented despite it undoubtfully not helpful to anyone... It was something that was never suppose to have been. So was the "harvest resources from creatures you sampled to death" bug that was for BE's.
Buffbots and afk playing was never mend to happen, and now it is being removed. One of the effects of that AFK play style was driving live entertainers away for the public eye.
Many players have bees use to free and readily available buffs, there is no way to remove that with out making them unhappy. But we do not solve it by creating NPC entertainers and many would like. They did not consider the effect on entertainers when the did so, they passed thair problems on to us, and if we now hand them back it just put us back on equal footing.
Still I do not wand them to be left with out mind buffs, but I wand the mind buffs to be given by live entertainers. I am all for tools that will help a combated find the entertainers they need, such tools was supposed to be there for launch, but our map registration have never been fixed.
Docs have combat implications so there are a lot of them. That still being said, it's still hard to find Doc buffs late at night, causing people to log.
Chefs, Tailors, Weaponsmiths, and all other crafters ARE held up to a 24 hour standard. It's called vendors. People go to the stocked ones and not the empty ones. If I want a T21 at 3am, I can find one.
It will be difficulty to implement a 24/7 standard for entertainers with out cutting us totally off from what we are suppose to be. It we could per say "charge up" a vendor with be healing, 90% of all player would use them over a live entertainer. And if Doc buffs can be found at 03:00 then why the fuss about not being to find a entertainer buff ? With the way people migrate thair stats (all in mind) a doc buff is fare more imported then an entertainer buff. Yet I so know one calling for in implementation of NPC doctors to buff them. (ok one post in the entertainer board suggest that all buffs should be able to be sold throe vendors, but it is the only one I have seen)
So now your asking for trust again. Saying that you will switch servers to go to one that needs Entertainers seems a bit much. The game has many Socializers, a small percentage of them play Entertainers. By leaving one server to go to another, you may leave that old server lacking as well.
Why should 24 servers suffer because 1 can't get it to work? Because that is big picure thinking. If it's not working on one server from there start, there is a high percentage chance that eventually it may stop working on the other servers as well.
Any fix that is done NEEDS to be good for all servers. No server should be helped at the expense of others, just the same as professions. Find a way that works.
No, I wound switch server. However, there is always someone who is making a new character on a new server, and there is always someone trying on new professions. The 25'th server would slowly get it's entertainers back, unless it have some hostile element that make it less fun to be an entertainer there then on other servers.
As I said in my last post that quote be on that, NPC selling weapons are not made on all servers because one lack weaponsmiths, and mission pay is not slashed on one server because to many mission is being run on one server... You simply do not brake 24 servers to save one, and taking something away from entertainers will make few entertainers available on all servers and hence put the first 24'th closer to become like the 25'th.
The way to do it is to make entertainers easier to find, provide in game tools that will make it easier for players to find entertainers. How much entertainer services would cost would then end up depending on how many entertainers was around.
Good post, I agree with much that you said, just going to cover 2 points.
Ok Entertainers are not just socializers, they are support characters as well, I will buy that. So you attract the types of people who like to socialize and support. The problem is that those types of people are also attracted to such playstyles as Doc and Combat medic. Could even call the crafting professions socializers and support. Heck, I am for sure a socializer, and my guy was built to tank high end mobs for our guild, and not kill anything, so I socialize and support as well.
So my point is that let's say 10% of the people in the game are willing to play socializers and support characters. Of those, let's say 2% play entertainers.Can 2% really take care of the BF and mind buffs for the other 98%? BF is CRITICAL.
Yes Docs can be hard to find sometimes, butonly rarely. Docs have combat applications, so their are more of them around.
Flame away if you want, but if AFK was killed tomorrow, there would never be nearly as manyEntertainers as there are Docs. In order for those numbers to rise, there would have to be a lot of REASONS added to the Entertainer profession. Many classescan socialize and support, that simply isn't enough.
Straker_Atrella wrote:Yes I realize that my running a buffbot in our private guild cantina may inconvieniance the 2 (maybe) Entertainers on our server that I can never find. Yet I can list 30+ people who my buffbot does make their playing more fun.
You seem reasonable to me, and quite a bit more mature about the issue them most other combatants.
Personally that kind of buffbot do not bother me at all as long as it is not advertised to the public.
It was the buffbots parked in the public cantinas that gut us up in arms. There have even been requests classify buffbots in public areas as harassment.
If the buffbots had not been shoved in our faces, you would properly have found most of us more flexible. As it is, it is clear that a large amount of players have no interest what so ever in our plight. They are unwilling to give even an inch. Now we just was our problem fixed, and then we can start talking about how to help them to find us.
So my point is that let's say 10% of the people in the game are willing to play socializers and support characters. Of those, let's say 2% play entertainers. Can 2% really take care of the BF and mind buffs for the other 98%? BF is CRITICAL.
Not all 100% of players can have krayt weapons and 85% base composite. That privileges goes to the ones that pays the most, or to the ones that know the right people. If it is the same with mind buffs is that a problem then?
As for BF. one single entertainer can heal the BF of as many players and can cram them self in to the cantina with out crashing the server
And put a few of master musicians/dancers in a group and BF will evaporate very fast indeed.At Oct 20th last year 0.97% of all characters had Novice Dancer, and 0.71% Novice Musician. So 0.002% is not a lot of entertainers, that would mean the server had 840 times fewer entertainers then an average server! If any server gets that low, the something is defenitly wrong with the server. If so few people on a server are dancers or musicians then the server should be studied, because something must be driving them away. Finding that thing and fixing it should be a priority and would properly help game play on all servers.
Flame away if you want, but if AFK was killed tomorrow, there would never be nearly as many Entertainers as there are Docs. In order for those numbers to rise, there would have to be a lot of REASONS added to the Entertainer profession. Many classes can socialize and support, that simply isn't enough.
I never said that entertainers would equal doctors in numbers. But just a few of us can serve a lot of players, a doc can buff a player in say 1 minute, a musician can buff 19 people in 3 minutes and 20 seconds if buffed.
A doc can only follow one group around and heal them and the like, a musician can heal the BF of several groups at once.
We do not have to be as many musicians as doctors.
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Yes I realize that my running a buffbot in our private guild cantina may inconvieniance the 2 (maybe) Entertainers on our server that I can never find. Yet I can list 30+ people who my buffbot does make their playing more fun.
You seem reasonable to me, and quite a bit more mature about the issue them most other combatants.
Personally that kind of buffbot do not bother me at all as long as it is not advertised to the public.
It was the buffbots parked in the public cantinas that gut us up in arms. There have even been requests classify buffbots in public areas as harassment.
If the buffbots had not been shoved in our faces, you would properly have found most of us more flexible. As it is, it is clear that a large amount of players have no interest what so ever in our plight. They are unwilling to give even an inch. Now we just was our problem fixed, and then we can start talking about how to help them to find us.
So my point is that let's say 10% of the people in the game are willing to play socializers and support characters. Of those, let's say 2% play entertainers. Can 2% really take care of the BF and mind buffs for the other 98%? BF is CRITICAL.
Not all 100% of players can have krayt weapons and 85% base composite. That privileges goes to the ones that pays the most, or to the ones that know the right people. If it is the same with mind buffs is that a problem then?
As for BF. one single entertainer can heal the BF of as many players and can cram them self in to the cantina with out crashing the server
At Oct 20th last year 0.97% of all characters had Novice Dancer, and 0.71% Novice Musician. So 0.002% is not a lot of entertainers, that would mean the server had 840 times fewer entertainers then an average server! If any server gets that low, the something is defenitly wrong with the server. If so few people on a server are dancers or musicians then the server should be studied, because something must be driving them away. Finding that thing and fixing it should be a priority and would properly help game play on all servers.
Flame away if you want, but if AFK was killed tomorrow, there would never be nearly as many Entertainers as there are Docs. In order for those numbers to rise, there would have to be a lot of REASONS added to the Entertainer profession. Many classes can socialize and support, that simply isn't enough.
I never said that entertainers would equal doctors in numbers. But just a few of us can serve a lot of players, a doc can buff a player in say 1 minute, a musician can buff 19 people in 3 minutes and 20 seconds if buffed.
A doc can only follow one group around and heal them and the like, a musician can heal the BF of several groups at once.
We do not have to be as many musicians as doctors.
Beery wrote:
"my point is that let's say 10% of the people in the game are willing to play socializers and support characters."
All players are socializers. You can't play this game without depending on others, so everyone must use social skills. That's how the game is built. As for 'support characters' there is no such thing as asupport class. Each profession supports and is supported by the others. We are not in the olden days of MMORPGs where combat was the main goal of the game. Each profession in SWG is self-sustaining in terms of its goals. To speak of 'support professions'shows aprejudiceagainst non-combat professions. As I say in my signature, combat is no longer compulsory. It is possible to thrive in this game without engaging in combat. Combat is nowjustone choice among many equally worthystyles of play.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
You play the game your way, others will play it thiers. Please don't try and push your way onto others, they may not like it.
SmedleyLlama wrote:I think you'll find a lot of guilds will be shutting down those Alt Entertainers soon. Their owners really have no interest in playing them and will probably choose to take back their cash, rather than leave the account to sit, gathering dust.
Good. the fewer people who play entertainer character, with out having any interest in being an entertainer, the better. However guilds do not have to rely on alt entertainer, why not recruit a dancer/TKA or something like that, they do exist.
Look at it like this, the strongest guilds have people of all professions in them. If you choose not to have entertainers you have to hope that independents will provide you with the service. Just as you have to hope to find an online independent weaponsmith willing to work for cash, to make you that krayt Jawa rifle if you only got 6 tissues.
I'm sorry but I have two probles with this. First, you advocate joining a guild so you never have to worry about being without an entertainer. But then you turn around and embrace the only game system in SWG which forces a player to interact directly with another. Not for interaction sake, but just so they can get back to playing "their" game. Would you feel the same if you were forced to find a Tailor every two hours for a new pair of shoes or lose the ability to dance? And not just find his vendor, but the Tailor himself and wait while he made them? OR an Artisan to fix your instrument before you could play another note? So long as you cling to the monopoly on BF healing, you will have combat players that resent you. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't really enter into it.
I know 3 tailors, and about 5 master artisans. Not a lot and if I needed thair service often I would make sure to get to know even more. If I have to find artisan every few hours to play my best song, or play on my best instrument, then I would play a lower song with a lower instrument when I could not find a artisan. You can do the same, just take easier missions and the mind buffs wound not be necessary, then you can "make due" with food and spice.
Every profession category have some sort of monopoly.
* Scouts/rangers are the only ones that can harvest creature resources.
* Medics/doctors are the only ones that can heal other people wounds and use stim's.
* Artisan and its elite profession make the equipment.
* Entertainers heal BF. (as do PC hospitals)
* Combat characters are the ones that make the huge amount of credit from mission terminals
That is the point of the game, Interdependency. If you are unhappy about that concept then complain to SOE, not to us entertainers.
Even as a master entertainer/master musician, entertainer missions only give 200 cr max... We NEED the combat character to tip us, that is what we are suppose to get our income from.
And I'm sorry.. I started a brand new Dancer on Starsider Friday night. I have now made 84,000 credits (all ATK) just from Mind & BF healing. So obviously someone out there is still tipping. Do people walk away without tipping? Absolutely. But you know what... this has been an issue since this game launched. The Buff Bots didn't have anything to do with it.
Tips have picked up lately, it started a few days after the removal of recursive macros was announced.
From playing 8 hours in the dantooine mining outpost, over the last 2 days, I made 25k or so... the ticket there and back cost about 5K... that is about 2500 an hour. I can make that easy on explore missions. Luckily credit is not what motivate me.
You're right. And that is why the Buff Bot first came into being. Because the Tailor, the Chef, the Weaponsmith, even the Doctor have an alternative in the form of an NPC counterpart. Provide the same for the entertainer and I think you'll find most arguments would go away as well.
What NPC's heal disease, poison, and put out fires like doctors do, or just heal wound? Yes you can sit in a medicinal centre and get your wounds healed slowly, and the other run out in time. But your BF will be healed in a PC hospital, so entertainers are equal to doctors in that respect.
What NPC's make clothing? Yes there are vendors that sell clothing or loot it of NPC's, but you can not get a custom order from a vendor unless the PC tailor have already made it for you, the same goes for Chefs.
Because the game community covers all servers and changes are not done in a vacuum. You see... You have my complete support for fixing the entertainer professions and removing the AFK gameplay. My problem is the player that would do so at the expense of all other playing types. Consider alternatives or solutions that will make the game better for everyone. If that means removing recursive macros.. fine. Come up with something to help those negatively impacted by that decision.
That can't really be too much to ask for, can it?
You have a funny way of thinking of the hole community. Lets say that there was Just one server where not a lot of people hunted krayt dragons, so if I had a combat character on that server that wanted a krayt enhanced pistol, would you then support a NPC selling krayt tissues?
Changes have to be made for the gaiter good, if one server does not have the necessary community to support it self, it should not hold back the others. It would be like creating NPC's selling weapons on all servers because one server did not have enough weaponsmiths, or cutting mission payout on all servers by 90% because one server had to much credit.
I am not saying that there should not be tool that would help you find a live entertainer when you need one, but it will take time to develop (or at the very least fix the things there are currently). And being an entertainer could certainly be made more fun, that would get more entertainers as well, but again it will take time. And this fix of AFK play should not be delayed just because some people cant imagine fighting with out mind buffs.
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:I disagree with your buffs and Krayt weapons anology. High end hard to get weapons are what keep people playing a game, a goal for people to search for. Buffs should not be in the same catagory as that.
I did not mean at the same level, but simply that mind buffs is a commodity, and as such it might not be available to all. NO commodities in the game are "right" that anyone should have access to for what they can afford. Moreover, knowing the "right people" can lower the price sufficiently or even eliminate it.
Beery think you misunderstood the concept here. "socializers" and "support characters" are personally types along with "Killer", "explore", "crafter", "achiver", "1337", and the like. It is a word that descries what people find fun.
Beery wrote:All players are socializers. You can't play this game without depending on others, so everyone must use social skills. That's how the game is built.
A Socialize is one that has fun chatting about in game and out of game things, or at least be around thoughts that do. A socalicer would not have much fun running missions by him self, but would enjoy the same mission if he was running them with a friend.
As for 'support characters' there is no such thing as a support class. Each profession supports and is supported by the others. We are not in the olden days of MMORPGs where combat was the main goal of the game.
A "support character" is a player who enjoy helping others, Often "support characters" have templates and profession where thair power only come to full effect when assisting others, with something that is the the goal of thair own professions.
Sat a doctor who "heal" to heal a group "kill" something. Or a entertainer who "heal" to help a group get back out and "kill" faster.
To speak of 'support professions' shows a prejudice against non-combat professions. As I say in my signature, combat is no longer compulsory. It is possible to thrive in this game without engaging in combat. Combat is now just one choice among many equally worthy styles of play.
Wit so many different play styles putting words on them is more imported the ever.
I am in a hurry so I will get back to the rest later.
Beery wrote:
"Beery think you misunderstood the concept here. "socializers" and "support characters" are personally types along with "Killer", "explore", "crafter", "achiver", "1337", and the like. It is a word that descries what people find fun."
I agree, but Straker was using it as if it applied to all entertainers. It doesn't. I play an entertainer, yet I'm one of the least 'social' personality types I know. To assume that all entertainers are social is as wrong as assuming that all combat types are killers or achievers.
"A "support character" is a player who enjoy helping others, Often "support characters" have templates and profession where thair power only come to full effect when assisting others, with something that is the the goal of thair own professions."
I agree, but Straker's message implied that support characters were there as combat support. That isn't true.
Beery it looks like you have taken Straker_Atrella for a "1337", first off he spelling to good to be a true "1337", to me he comes across as a socialize and achiever.
Berry wrore:I agree, but Straker was using it as if it applied to all entertainers. It doesn't. I play an entertainer, yet I'm one of the least 'social' personality types I know. To assume that all entertainers are social is as wrong as assuming that all combat types are killers or achievers.
You must the entertainers is a appealing profession for a "socializer". We are grounded to one spot when to use our skills, and often with the same people. Chatting even if it is IC would only me natural in such a satiation. I admit I am not the most talkative person my self, but I like to listen in and comment once in a while, properly because I do not type that fast.
I agree, but Straker's message implied that support characters were there as combat support. That isn't true.
The game is quite combating minded from the design point of view. The combatants are the credit in flow of the economy, and crafters are the outflow. We as entertainers are just a link in the chain.
Yes we are support for combatants, but support like the load bearing walls in a house. Take out the walls and the roof will collapse.
Straker_Atrella understand that Berry is properly a bit defensive, you admit to have taken part in an activity that is more treating to his play style then lack of mind buffs are to yours. In am form of communication where tone of voice and facial expirations are lost, it is easy to miss read the opinion begin the words, laying more wait on one word then another can shift the meaning. And accusations of word twisting do not help even if it looks like that to you.
Now lets get back to what we should be discussing. How can Mindbuffs and BF healing me made available 24/7 on all servers with out giving the abilities to NPC's or changing the way entertainers work to mutch?