Armorsmith Archive
Thread: CURB Resource Number-Crunching
Rancorrider4
Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:29 pm
#40
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
It's late and I can't sleep, so what better way to pass the time than by doing some number crunching on the new armor schematics as provided by NiBorg. I'm going to assume that even with the new layering system, the advantages of quad-layering will be such that quad-layered advanced armor will be the norm for maxxed-out combatants.
Some general observations:
- With the exceptions of the Kashyyykian Wookiee armors and the Ithorian Defender (Battle) armor, all equivalent-level suits ofarmor (basic/standard/advanced) will require the same aggregate number of organic and inorganicresources.
- Under the new system, a single suit of Advanced Assault, Battle, or Recon Armorwill require 1580 organic resource units. This is 14.5% of the total resource requirements.
Currently, a single suit of Advanced Composite requires 210 creature-harvested resources, or 4.3% of the total. The new system triples the influence of creature-harvested resources, and the numerical increaseis 652%.
However, a suit of Advanced Padded currently requires 1515 organic resource units, meaning a numericalincrease of 4%. Furthermore, a suit of Advanced Kashyyykian Hunting Armor currently requires941 creature-harvested organic resources, while a suit of any Wookiee armor in the new system will require 1540 creature-harvested organic resources, for an increase of 64%.
- Under the new system, excluding tailored panels and cloths, the aggregate resource requirement for a maximum factory production of 29 suits of quadruple-energy-layered advanced armor is 376,445 resource units. Currently, a maximum factory run of46 suits of triple-energy-layered advanced composite requires 225,262 resource units. So, we will be able to make 63% of the armor for 167% ofthe resources.
The last bullet point above is the crux of the problem, and it means one of two things -- either we must accept a serious reduction in our earnings potential, or the price of armor will skyrocket. Why? Follow along.
Let's assume that I currently charge 350,000-credits per full suit of armor. If I can make 46 suits in a "run," and assuming all 46 suits sold in a timely fashion, I can expect 16.1 Million credits ofincome from the resources, time, and effort.
Post-CURB, my income needs will not change -- I still have to pay maintenance, buy resources, fund my spice habits, and all other manner of in-game needs. If anything, they would likely increase, but for the purposes of this exercise, we'll assume that they won't. Furthermore, my rational expectation is that my net earnings potential will remain constant. Thus, I must restructure my prices so that I realize the same profit for my resources, time, and effort that I earned in the previous system -- I must convert that 16.1Mcr.
Because I am now using 67% more resources for the same effect, I can multiply my price by 1.67, but this assumes that all resources are equal in value. (Clearly they are not -- the added organic and rare resource requirements should easily increase the 1.67multiplier.) Due to the changed system, I am now also less productive with my time and resources, as I can only make 63% of my previous stock for the same effort. (Thisassumes that the total factory times for a "run" remain relatively constant from the old system to the new.) To retain the same "hourly wage," I divide my price by 0.63.
Having now accounted for the increased resources and decreased productivity, we see that in order for me to retain the same earning potential in the new system as in the old, I must increase my price by 265%. For the hypothetical 350,000-credit suit, the new CURB price becomes 927,778-credits. Again, the new price does not even take into account the anticipated increased per-unit resource costs or the likely increase in factory time and shop overhead if one wishes to maintain a well-rounded shop, so it is entirely likely that the price could rise even further.
Are we likely to seethe price of post-CURB armor almost triple the current level over the long run? I doubt the market will bear it. An increase of 50-100% is much more likely. What thismeansis that our earning potential as armorsmiths will take a significant hit, as we'll be forced to eat the costs of decreased productivity.
Just my sleep-deprived ramblings.
I don't know the first darn thing about armorsmithing but this post is terrific.
I'm giving it 5 stars. Oh wait......
Phaelyn
Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:30 pm
#41
UmmonPrime wrote:
On shadowfire I could get 1.1 mil for a 90% base suit. No complaints ever, none at all. Sold as fast as I could load them too.
Too true - I paid 750k for a 90% sliced suit without blinking. Many people would - I guess because some of us know that to GET that 90%, you need a certain Slice %.. You could end up buying crate after crate of Armor to have sliced on your own, and possibly NEVER get those numbers - The "Upcharge" was well worth it.
As a note to all of you Armorsmiths - You have the support of at least THIS TKM - I know what you have to deal with.
Machin
Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:05 pm
#42
Brilliant, thank you.
I often wonder when problems like this arise, how do the devlopers not see it? Things like wounds growing larger than max ham while bufffed leaving you permanently incapped. Or the weapon speed cap of 1.0 being reached by all weapons. I can only hope that they become more critical, or people like you can debug all the systems being implemented in the CU. Please someone do this kind of anaylisis for weapon speed asap!
I often wonder when problems like this arise, how do the devlopers not see it? Things like wounds growing larger than max ham while bufffed leaving you permanently incapped. Or the weapon speed cap of 1.0 being reached by all weapons. I can only hope that they become more critical, or people like you can debug all the systems being implemented in the CU. Please someone do this kind of anaylisis for weapon speed asap!
FinderComnet
Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:11 pm
#43
It is unfortunate that armorsmiths crafting has been so dumbed down.
I don't know, as it is explained in the new system, to change it would hurt the balance of who can wear how big a suit. My thoughts are, if you can't actually work on the encumbrance of the suit now, how about some sub system lines to place your experimentation points into? Meaning; much like BE clothing, instead of giving just armor defense bonuses perhaps some minor skill bonuses. These armors are hi-tech, its not like slapping a metal helm over your head and saying its good. Add in a HUD line thatwhen experimented with can give asmall bonus to General Ranged, General Melee, or creature recognition bonus. How about an optional stealth component, when added can give a smallbonus to stealth and mask scent (explainedas full enviromental enclosure and heat dispersion). How about"powering" armor to add bonus melee damage or larger personal carrying capacity?
This gives an Armorsmith the ability toexperimentonarmor, making a name for themselves in not only how good the armor defends but on what the armor asists people in. It also will help seperate them in personal expertises, you want powered armor, go to so and so,she makes the best. You want personal HUDS, go to this person, his are the best.
CaixCatab
Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:16 pm
#45
According to the last HoC scout and ranger skills will now give HAM, making scouts and rangers a tad bit less screwed in the assembly of organic resources.
Lotussutol
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:00 am
#46
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
It's late and I can't sleep, so what better way to pass the time than by doing some number crunching on the new armor schematics as provided by NiBorg. I'm going to assume that even with the new layering system, the advantages of quad-layering will be such that quad-layered advanced armor will be the norm for maxxed-out combatants.
Some general observations:
- With the exceptions of the Kashyyykian Wookiee armors and the Ithorian Defender (Battle) armor, all equivalent-level suits ofarmor (basic/standard/advanced) will require the same aggregate number of organic and inorganicresources.
- Under the new system, a single suit of Advanced Assault, Battle, or Recon Armorwill require 1580 organic resource units. This is 14.5% of the total resource requirements.
Currently, a single suit of Advanced Composite requires 210 creature-harvested resources, or 4.3% of the total. The new system triples the influence of creature-harvested resources, and the numerical increaseis 652%.
However, a suit of Advanced Padded currently requires 1515 organic resource units, meaning a numericalincrease of 4%. Furthermore, a suit of Advanced Kashyyykian Hunting Armor currently requires941 creature-harvested organic resources, while a suit of any Wookiee armor in the new system will require 1540 creature-harvested organic resources, for an increase of 64%.
- Under the new system, excluding tailored panels and cloths, the aggregate resource requirement for a maximum factory production of 29 suits of quadruple-energy-layered advanced armor is 376,445 resource units. Currently, a maximum factory run of46 suits of triple-energy-layered advanced composite requires 225,262 resource units. So, we will be able to make 63% of the armor for 167% ofthe resources.
The last bullet point above is the crux of the problem, and it means one of two things -- either we must accept a serious reduction in our earnings potential, or the price of armor will skyrocket. Why? Follow along.
Let's assume that I currently charge 350,000-credits per full suit of armor. If I can make 46 suits in a "run," and assuming all 46 suits sold in a timely fashion, I can expect 16.1 Million credits ofincome from the resources, time, and effort.
Post-CURB, my income needs will not change -- I still have to pay maintenance, buy resources, fund my spice habits, and all other manner of in-game needs. If anything, they would likely increase, but for the purposes of this exercise, we'll assume that they won't. Furthermore, my rational expectation is that my net earnings potential will remain constant. Thus, I must restructure my prices so that I realize the same profit for my resources, time, and effort that I earned in the previous system -- I must convert that 16.1Mcr.
Because I am now using 67% more resources for the same effect, I can multiply my price by 1.67, but this assumes that all resources are equal in value. (Clearly they are not -- the added organic and rare resource requirements should easily increase the 1.67multiplier.) Due to the changed system, I am now also less productive with my time and resources, as I can only make 63% of my previous stock for the same effort. (Thisassumes that the total factory times for a "run" remain relatively constant from the old system to the new.) To retain the same "hourly wage," I divide my price by 0.63.
Having now accounted for the increased resources and decreased productivity, we see that in order for me to retain the same earning potential in the new system as in the old, I must increase my price by 265%. For the hypothetical 350,000-credit suit, the new CURB price becomes 927,778-credits. Again, the new price does not even take into account the anticipated increased per-unit resource costs or the likely increase in factory time and shop overhead if one wishes to maintain a well-rounded shop, so it is entirely likely that the price could rise even further.
Are we likely to seethe price of post-CURB armor almost triple the current level over the long run? I doubt the market will bear it. An increase of 50-100% is much more likely. What thismeansis that our earning potential as armorsmiths will take a significant hit, as we'll be forced to eat the costs of decreased productivity.
Just my sleep-deprived ramblings.
great post...and I see they already cut the cost in half...
post CU I think there will be more WS/AS crafters since now there will be too many usefull/needed items for one crafter to make them allso the market will open up. With more people in the market crafting odds are the profit margin is going to slim down since there will be more people doing it.
I also see the meat/hide harvesting market opening up and there will be a huge demand. The number one tip I tell people if you want to make money is harvest harvest harvest and save that hide till the CU hits...there will be a huge demand for hide.
salvestrom
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:05 am
#47
You neglected to note your actual profit. Plus your expectation of your profit remaining constant is pure greed, given that the earning power of everyone else will go down. I do not believe that the amount of money attainable in a buff set running missions, even with an At-St, will be as high after the CURB.
Why do you think your profit margin shouldn't take a hit with the CU? Why must you make the same after as you do now? This is no different than a doctor/swordsman complaining that they won't be able to solo krayts after the CU. It's just about what you are losing, and not how the game as a whole will improve/be affected.
You may, perhaps, want to point out that I'll need a suit of armour, and it's in my own interest to ensure the price is kept down... well, maybe it is... but I won't be blaming SoE for a sky-rocketing economy. Just so you know...
Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
Salvestrom
Andymantium
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:09 am
#48
Focus on the ratios, not the number itself..he was providing an example.
KaiRaene
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:13 am
#49
Blixtev wrote:
Brutus_Krylop wrote:It's late and I can't sleep, so what better way to pass the time than by doing some number crunching on the new armor schematics as provided by NiBorg. I'm going to assume that even with the new layering system, the advantages of quad-layering will be such that quad-layered advanced armor will be the norm for maxxed-out combatants.Some general observations:
- With the exceptions of the Kashyyykian Wookiee armors and the Ithorian Defender (Battle) armor, all equivalent-level suits of armor (basic/standard/advanced) will require the same aggregate number of organic and inorganic resources.
- Under the new system, a single suit of Advanced Assault, Battle, or Recon Armor will require 1580 organic resource units. This is 14.5% of the total resource requirements.
Currently, a single suit of Advanced Composite requires 210 creature-harvested resources, or 4.3% of the total. The new system triples the influence of creature-harvested resources, and the numerical increase is 652%.
However, a suit of Advanced Padded currently requires 1515 organic resource units, meaning a numerical increase of 4%. Furthermore, a suit of Advanced Kashyyykian Hunting Armor currently requires 941 creature-harvested organic resources, while a suit of any Wookiee armor in the new system will require 1540 creature-harvested organic resources, for an increase of 64%.- Under the new system, excluding tailored panels and cloths, the aggregate resource requirement for a maximum factory production of 29 suits of quadruple-energy-layered advanced armor is 376,445 resource units. Currently, a maximum factory run of 46 suits of triple-energy-layered advanced composite requires 225,262 resource units. So, we will be able to make 63% of the armor for 167% of the resources.
The last bullet point above is the crux of the problem, and it means one of two things -- either we must accept a serious reduction in our earnings potential, or the price of armor will skyrocket. Why? Follow along.Let's assume that I currently charge 350,000-credits per full suit of armor. If I can make 46 suits in a "run," and assuming all 46 suits sold in a timely fashion, I can expect 16.1 Million credits of income from the resources, time, and effort.Post-CURB, my income needs will not change -- I still have to pay maintenance, buy resources, fund my spice habits, and all other manner of in-game needs. If anything, they would likely increase, but for the purposes of this exercise, we'll assume that they won't. Furthermore, my rational expectation is that my net earnings potential will remain constant. Thus, I must restructure my prices so that I realize the same profit for my resources, time, and effort that I earned in the previous system -- I must convert that 16.1Mcr.Because I am now using 67% more resources for the same effect, I can multiply my price by 1.67, but this assumes that all resources are equal in value. (Clearly they are not -- the added organic and rare resource requirements should easily increase the 1.67 multiplier.) Due to the changed system, I am now also less productive with my time and resources, as I can only make 63% of my previous stock for the same effort. (This assumes that the total factory times for a "run" remain relatively constant from the old system to the new.) To retain the same "hourly wage," I divide my price by 0.63.Having now accounted for the increased resources and decreased productivity, we see that in order for me to retain the same earning potential in the new system as in the old, I must increase my price by 265%. For the hypothetical 350,000-credit suit, the new CURB price becomes 927,778-credits. Again, the new price does not even take into account the anticipated increased per-unit resource costs or the likely increase in factory time and shop overhead if one wishes to maintain a well-rounded shop, so it is entirely likely that the price could rise even further.Are we likely to see the price of post-CURB armor almost triple the current level over the long run? I doubt the market will bear it. An increase of 50-100% is much more likely. What this means is that our earning potential as armorsmiths will take a significant hit, as we'll be forced to eat the costs of decreased productivity.Just my sleep-deprived ramblings.
Excellent post, I cut the number of organics in half on cores and final appearance combines, should make it to TC today or tommorrow.
Blix, what are you going to do when armorsmiths still cant craft as much as they would like because anyone harvesting creature resources are nerfed because we cant fight as well as a 2 combat stacker. Not giving Rangers the health bonus is a horrible decision. So, basically a Master Rifleman/Master Ranger wont be able to harvest as well because we wont be able to fight anything much stronger than a level 40ish mob?
Keep on cutting those resources. Its all you can do I guess.
Kelloch
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:13 am
#50
salvestrom wrote:You neglected to note your actual profit. Plus your expectation of your profit remaining constant is pure greed, given that the earning power of everyone else will go down. I do not believe that the amount of money attainable in a buff set running missions, even with an At-St, will be as high after the CURB.Why do you think your profit margin shouldn't take a hit with the CU? Why must you make the same after as you do now? This is no different than a doctor/swordsman complaining that they won't be able to solo krayts after the CU. It's just about what you are losing, and not how the game as a whole will improve/be affected.You may, perhaps, want to point out that I'll need a suit of armour, and it's in my own interest to ensure the price is kept down... well, maybe it is... but I won't be blaming SoE for a sky-rocketing economy. Just so you know...Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.Salvestrom
I think he said it was an assumption just to work off of. Even if he decided to keep the same profit margin, you can't call it greed without knowing what his previous profit margin is and that's assuming you can value a person's time into a margin. If its a high profit margin, then maybe we could call it greed. If its fairly low, then we get into arguments about what is acceptable.
Doesn't matter anyway, since I believe in the law of supply and demand. The market will determine what the price shall be.
IshmaelKryste
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:22 am
#52
I have to agree with the greed factor. Maybe it's just question of being mis-informed as to what the landscape will be with the other professions.
It is KNOWN that every profession's earning power is going to decrease SIGNIFICANTLY. As a result, your profit and hourly wage expectations should also decrease SIGNIFICANTLY. Expecting to make the exact same amount of credits/hour and keeping your prices up there is going to get you obliterated in the new market, because I guarantee there will be people willing and able to charge less than you. The smart ones, that realize their earning potential has decreased.
Do all the math you want, you don't set the market value. Someone will undercut your overpriced wares, and it's going to be blatantly easy to see it with the new global bazaar.
On the flip side, once your customers realize that a) there are cheaper options available and b) they can't make cash as easily as they used to, you're going to have to reduce your profit margins just like anyone else.
It is KNOWN that every profession's earning power is going to decrease SIGNIFICANTLY. As a result, your profit and hourly wage expectations should also decrease SIGNIFICANTLY. Expecting to make the exact same amount of credits/hour and keeping your prices up there is going to get you obliterated in the new market, because I guarantee there will be people willing and able to charge less than you. The smart ones, that realize their earning potential has decreased.
Do all the math you want, you don't set the market value. Someone will undercut your overpriced wares, and it's going to be blatantly easy to see it with the new global bazaar.
On the flip side, once your customers realize that a) there are cheaper options available and b) they can't make cash as easily as they used to, you're going to have to reduce your profit margins just like anyone else.