Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Wookiee armor
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
While I have not played a Wookiee myself in the game at this point, I have quite a few Wookiee friends so I understand the challenges of playing a Wookiee....
That being said, I am not in favour of Wookiee armor as a solution to this problem.
I think a better solution would be the following: Boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees to double or triple of a human or similar race in the game (assuming this is not already the case, which I personally have no knowledge of...), and proportionately reduce the kinetic damage resistance of ALL armor to a maximum of 50-60% and that would balance things better.
As I see it, far too many people here are doing two things: 1. comparing apples with oranges and 2. not accepting the consequences of their actions.
Regarding point 2, NOBODY put a gun to anybody's head and said you HAVE to play a Wookiee. You make the choice knowing they can't wear armor, you have to live with the consequences and put up without armour. Wookiees' natural bonuses make them especially good at brawling. You want to play against your strengths? Then you should have a harder time of it. If you wanted it easier, then you should pick a race geared to your chosen profession or play a Wookiee for what Wookiees are good at...
As to point 1, any Wookiee brawler should be able to wipe the floor with any other brawler (except Transdohans of course) because of their size and power IF both are unarmoured and both are in the same state with regards to buffs (either both unbuffed or both buffed). An unarmoured Wookiee will outlast an unarmoured human anyday with equal amounts of buffing due to the 700 pt HAM bonus. Wookiees and Transdoshans should have much higher brawler damage than other races though.
Here's where the kinetic resistance cap of 50-60% for armour comes into play. If you are wearing a suit of armour in real-life and I hit you in the head with a mace, you're likely to have your skull caved in regardless of the armour. Armour reduces damage, not eliminates it. If you're wearing a Kevlar bulletproof vest and I shoot you with a 45mm bullet, it may not penetrate and kill you but I'll guarantee it will hurt an awful lot and you will suffer blunt trauma (bruising and he like). Armour can spread out kinetic impact but the impact should not be negated. 90% kinetic resistance is practically negating any kinetic attack. For composite armour to have 90% resists on energy, blast, heat or such makes sense, but kinetic i.e. IMPACT damage should not be anywhere near that high.
So boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees, drop the kinetic resistance of armour to more reasonable levels and that should do it. If armour for Wookiees HAS to happen, a full suit is not appropriate.
With my solution (assuming both are similarly buffed) if a unarmoured Wookiee can get to melee range my composite wearing human should be pounded into pulp. If I can successfully keep him at distance, a blaster should drop him but slower than a human since Wookiees have higher stats. If the Wookiee can't catch me to beat me to a pulp, then he gets whacked, but isn't that the player's choice for being a Wookiee in the first place?
Playing with wookiees is in no way understanding what it is to be a wookiee. I was mentored by a zabrak, but I didn't understand beingzabrak until I made one.
Boost kinetic damage? So all wookiees should be brawlers? What is the bowcaster for in your opinion, a fancy club? Also your opinion that wookiees are especially good at brawling is not based on fact. This isn't EQ, physical strength doesn't equate to damage done here. Only Trando's get a bonus to unarmed damage and they are the typically accepted kings of unarmed combat.....note that is still not "brawling" as a whole.
You compare what a wookiee and a trando should be if both are unarmored and in a fist fight. But when was the last time you saw a unarmored trando in pvp? It doesn't happen. As I pointed out above, the Trando gets a damage bonus, the Trando will win.
I pretty much agree that having these suits of 80%+ resists to kinetic (Or anything else IMO)is ridiculous. I play a wookiee master TKA and can't harm someone in good armor. I'll expend my HAM before I do noticiable damage.
And as was already said, not everyone knew when they made their wookiee they would not have armor or some sort of useable protection. I certainly didn't know. But that's not here nor there. You have one race in the game that simply can not compete in pvp and that's a wookiee. It's based solely on the lack of armor. The fix is to give them armor. There isn't one single thing anywhere in the SWG universe that says wookiees can't wear armor except SOE. SOE is doing the right thing and amending this opinion to bring wookiees in line with other species.
Rebster wrote:
so let me get this right .wookiees are getting a ful set of body armour and from what i have heard from many many friends on the game wookies are getting heavy armour piercing mod in there stats in melee combat.is it just me or does swg want the wooks to rule the universe!!! and i have just deleted my wook char cos of the bloddy armour minus god damn you swg...
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:While I have not played a Wookiee myself in the game at this point, I have quite a few Wookiee friends so I understand the challenges of playing a Wookiee....
That being said, I am not in favour of Wookiee armor as a solution to this problem.
I think a better solution would be the following: Boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees to double or triple of a human or similar race in the game (assuming this is not already the case, which I personally have no knowledge of...), and proportionately reduce the kinetic damage resistance of ALL armor to a maximum of 50-60% and that would balance things better.
Like the other poster stated, if this was the case, all wookiees would have to be melee combatants in order to compete. Kinda ridiculous suggestion.As I see it, far too many people here are doing two things: 1. comparing apples with oranges and 2. not accepting the consequences of their actions.
Not accepting the consequences of my actions? Are you saying this game has consequences now. Is SOE my momma, who sent me to my room for being a wookiee?Regarding point 2, NOBODY put a gun to anybody's head and said you HAVE to play a Wookiee. You make the choice knowing they can't wear armor, you have to live with the consequences and put up without armour. Wookiees' natural bonuses make them especially good at brawling. You want to play against your strengths? Then you should have a harder time of it. If you wanted it easier, then you should pick a race geared to your chosen profession or play a Wookiee for what Wookiees are good at...
No, no one put a gun to my head. No one told me that I could not wear armor, and would be at a Severe disadvantage during combat. Like I have said before, no where in the manuals or during account creation does it state you cannot wear armor. Wookiees natural bonuses...Hah....like u said though you have never played a wookiee before.As to point 1, any Wookiee brawler should be able to wipe the floor with any other brawler (except Transdohans of course) because of their size and power IF both are unarmoured and both are in the same state with regards to buffs (either both unbuffed or both buffed). An unarmoured Wookiee will outlast an unarmoured human anyday with equal amounts of buffing due to the 700 pt HAM bonus. Wookiees and Transdoshans should have much higher brawler damage than other races though.
Here's where the kinetic resistance cap of 50-60% for armour comes into play. If you are wearing a suit of armour in real-life and I hit you in the head with a mace, you're likely to have your skull caved in regardless of the armour. Armour reduces damage, not eliminates it. If you're wearing a Kevlar bulletproof vest and I shoot you with a 45mm bullet, it may not penetrate and kill you but I'll guarantee it will hurt an awful lot and you will suffer blunt trauma (bruising and he like). Armour can spread out kinetic impact but the impact should not be negated. 90% kinetic resistance is practically negating any kinetic attack. For composite armour to have 90% resists on energy, blast, heat or such makes sense, but kinetic i.e. IMPACT damage should not be anywhere near that high.
So boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees, drop the kinetic resistance of armour to more reasonable levels and that should do it. If armour for Wookiees HAS to happen, a full suit is not appropriate.
With my solution (assuming both are similarly buffed) if a unarmoured Wookiee can get to melee range my composite wearing human should be pounded into pulp. If I can successfully keep him at distance, a blaster should drop him but slower than a human since Wookiees have higher stats. If the Wookiee can't catch me to beat me to a pulp, then he gets whacked, but isn't that the player's choice for being a Wookiee in the first place?
If in all sincerity people want Wookiees to be balanced, then what is the big deal with the following suggestion:
Let Wookiees wear Armor with increased encumberances to offet there HAM bonuses. I Challenge any Opposer to provide a VALID refute to this statement!!!! The "I never saw chewbacca wearing armor" statement is not Valid, so don't even go there. If anything we would still be at a disadvantages, considering the CAPS on our secondaries. Wookiee Roar is a Joke, as well as the Bowcaster.
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
While I have not played a Wookiee myself in the game at this point, I have quite a few Wookiee friends so I understand the challenges of playing a Wookiee....
That being said, I am not in favour of Wookiee armor as a solution to this problem.
I think a better solution would be the following: Boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees to double or triple of a human or similar race in the game (assuming this is not already the case, which I personally have no knowledge of...), and proportionately reduce the kinetic damage resistance of ALL armor to a maximum of 50-60% and that would balance things better.
Wookies right now have no damage bonus. Boosting damage only assists a Wookiee brawler, It does not help all the other Wookiees.
A Wookiee takes 8X the damage as somone in 75% resist armor. Reducing armor does not balance that. Also you only talk about reducing kinetic damage. Many MOBs have other damage types so this kinetic reduction still results in a large boost to all players other than Wookiees.
As I see it, far too many people here are doing two things: 1. comparing apples with oranges and 2. not accepting the consequences of their actions.
What is being compared apples to oranges? We are comparing the ability to players to take damage with Wookiees. Wookiee takes 8X the damage as someone in 75% armor, and we take 20X compared to 90%.
Consequences for actions? Are you refering to the myth that Wookiees knew that they couldn't wear. Nowhere does it say in the manual or character creation screen that Wookiees can not wear armor. Nor that armor would allow someone to take 12.5% of the damage as someone without armor. In fact, until last month, the manual said Wookiees COULD wear armor.
Regarding point 2, NOBODY put a gun to anybody's head and said you HAVE to play a Wookiee. You make the choice knowing they can't wear armor, you have to live with the consequences and put up without armour. Wookiees' natural bonuses make them especially good at brawling. You want to play against your strengths? Then you should have a harder time of it. If you wanted it easier, then you should pick a race geared to your chosen profession or play a Wookiee for what Wookiees are good at...
See above about knowing about Wookiees not being able to wear armor.
Wookiees especially good at brawling? What skill is that? There isn't any. Strenght bonus does not translate to increased damage, it just reduces HAM costs for specials.
As to point 1, any Wookiee brawler should be able to wipe the floor with any other brawler (except Transdohans of course) because of their size and power IF both are unarmoured and both are in the same state with regards to buffs (either both unbuffed or both buffed). An unarmoured Wookiee will outlast an unarmoured human anyday with equal amounts of buffing due to the 700 pt HAM bonus. Wookiees and Transdoshans should have much higher brawler damage than other races though.
Depends. You forget about racial caps on stats. A Human for example can actually have higher stats if they migrate their stats. As both races would do the same damage since their is no strength bonus, it comes down to luck.
Here's where the kinetic resistance cap of 50-60% for armour comes into play. If you are wearing a suit of armour in real-life and I hit you in the head with a mace, you're likely to have your skull caved in regardless of the armour. Armour reduces damage, not eliminates it. If you're wearing a Kevlar bulletproof vest and I shoot you with a 45mm bullet, it may not penetrate and kill you but I'll guarantee it will hurt an awful lot and you will suffer blunt trauma (bruising and he like). Armour can spread out kinetic impact but the impact should not be negated. 90% kinetic resistance is practically negating any kinetic attack. For composite armour to have 90% resists on energy, blast, heat or such makes sense, but kinetic i.e. IMPACT damage should not be anywhere near that high.
Why your fascination with kinetic? There are many other damage types. The most common being energy. Which would leave Wookiees still at a massive disadvantage in both PvE and PvP.
Why shouldn't kinetic be that high? BTW a Kevlar vest will not stop a 45mm bullet. A 45mm bullet would be about an inch and a half in diameter. The A10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog) only fires a 30mm round and that is used to kill tanks. I assume you meant to saya .45 bullet.
A Kevlar vest will stop a .45 bullet completely. Police use body armor and not one vest has failed in the line of duty at it's rating or lower. They also now use trauma shield. It's a layer that spreads the kinetic energy over a larger area (padding basicaly) so blunt trauma is not really a factor.
So boost the kinetic damage done by Wookiees, drop the kinetic resistance of armour to more reasonable levels and that should do it. If armour for Wookiees HAS to happen, a full suit is not appropriate.
See above about the kinetic thing. Reducing kinetic protection on armor and increasing kinetic damage for Wookiees doesn't even things out. Since not everything uses kinetic. In fact many do not.
Also why is Wookiee armor not appropriate? We know Wookiees DID wear armor in the books.
With my solution (assuming both are similarly buffed) if a unarmoured Wookiee can get to melee range my composite wearing human should be pounded into pulp. If I can successfully keep him at distance, a blaster should drop him but slower than a human since Wookiees have higher stats. If the Wookiee can't catch me to beat me to a pulp, then he gets whacked, but isn't that the player's choice for being a Wookiee in the first place?
No they won't. Double damage here is what you have.
Human is shooting Wookiee with energy weapon for 500 damage. Wookiee is hitting human for 500 damage.
Wookiee has no armor so it taking 500 damage per hit. Human is taking 125 per hit. That is a 50% reduction for AP0 vs AR1 (armor level) and another 50% reduction for the resists.
The Wookiee HAM bonus is 13%. A Human has 5400 HAM points. That averages out to 600 per stat. A Wookiee has 6100. That averages to 678 per stat.
So for an extra 78 point per stat the Wookiee using your system would still take 4X the damage. And that is balanced? It doesn't matter if I can catch you or not. I still can not outlast you.
Yes it was the players choice to be a Wookiee. But as stated earlier there was no indication that Wookiees could not wear armor. Also the HAM bonus was supposed to be their compensation for no armor. But that has shown to not even be close to the case.
If Wookiees shouldn't have been fixed because they chose them. Then shouldn't Commandos have never been fixed? They were completely broken at launch. They were that way for months. But using your arguement that was fine and they should never have been fixed. Because heh, they choose that profession didn't they?
YAY!! now there is no reaon not to bea wookie!!!! man this is the best news i have herd since the melon nerf of 2003.....
/emote looks at his zabrak and thinks so i get worse stats than a human and can't wear decent armor and this is made up for by givving me horns.... wow i got the best deal ever.... clicks the delet Characterr button to start a wookie
KRazah wrote:
YAY!! now there is no reaon not to bea wookie!!!! man this is the best news i have herd since the melon nerf of 2003.....
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
Let's not forget that armour only encumbers the secondary stats...
We haven't. What's your point? Lets also not forget that Wookiees secondary stats are capped rather low. A Human can have much higher secondary stats than a Wookiee.
If Wookiees get armour equivalent to the composite armour that other races use, their primary stat bonuses including the 350 point bonus to health alone mean that they wil be the new Uber race, and we're gonna see a whole ton of Wookiees out there with little else. Mark my words...being a Wookiee will be the new template-du-jour...
Can you show me where it says Wookiees are getting composite? It doesn't. It says Wookiees are getting armor. What kind and what pieces is unknown.
Everything else being equal with regards to armour and buffs in PvP, the stat bonuses that Wookiees get give them a decided major advantage.
No. Wookiees have asked for equality. Not the same armor. We've listed ways to counter the HAM advantage many times.
Saying my argument is invalid by using an example of a composite wearing human vs. a non-armour wearing Wookiee is comparing apples to oranges. Compare a human and Wookiee together with neither wearing armour and I feel sorry for the human. Wookiee will win every time unless human is VERY VERY lucky.
Wrong. It is not comparing apples to oranges because that is the present state of affairs. We can compare Wookiees to armor wearing other species because that is the why it is right now. In this we have shown that Wookiees are at a major disadvantage.
Comparing unarmored Human to Wookiee does not mean Wookiee wins 100% of the time. Nor does it require that the Human be "VERY VERY luck". The average stat bonus for the Wookiee is just 78 points per stat. That is less than the average PvP hit. Doing 100 PvP damage per hit means they both go down just about the same hit. At most a one hit difference. Yes a Wookiee has an advantage but it isn't nearly as great as you claim. It really just comes down who lands the first blow if using equal weapons and skill levels are the same.
Wookiee armour equal to others' armour does not create balance, it creates imbalance by overcompensating for the imbalance that exists now.
Of course it does. It puts Wookiees on an equal footing with the others. It lets the Wookiee enjoy the ability to participate in the GCW and with high end content.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that "Wookiee armor equal to others" means we get the exact same armor everyone else has now without any special changes.
This is not indicated anywhere by the Devs. The Devs stated they are looking at Wookiee specific armor which can easily incorporate stat reductions to counter the 13% HAM bonus.
If Wookiees gotta have armour it should be lower resist armour compared to the other races for balance to occur.
And? We've already discussed this and even came up with formulas for this. Read this post and other posts and you will see them. We've also included formulas to increase the encumberence to also negate the Wookiee HAM bonus.
"If Wookiees gotta have armor"? What do you mean "if"? Or are you saying that it is balanced now? Wow, 13% more stats and 8X as much damage taken.An inability to use armor attachments.Yea, that is balanced.
All your concerns have been addressed and repeatedly so.
Sorry but I'm going to have to 1 star you for repeating false information.