Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Posted on the WS forums... but may be of concern to you guys to
Well this sure sucks. I just resubed back to game around a week ago to try out CU changes both in crafting (been AS since almost the launch of the game) and combat. I quit SWG around a year ago, played WOW and came back just because I missed the crafting challenge SWG had. None of the other games I played had such a complex crafting.
Over the time I played I got quite a collection of resources. Sadly a whole bunch of them blew up with factories etc while I was gone. So over the past week I've spent around 20mil total getting resources I've been missing only to find out that I couldreach better armorat a 10 times cheaper cost with the new patch. What a welcome from SOE =/ May be I should just respec to combat proff while I still have free respecs. Ugh.
As it has been mentioned a few times already, this would remove the last little goal to strive for : the perfect layered armor.
Most (all?) servers can cap unlayered armor, but capped layered armor has been thought of as something close to impossiblesince it required perfect resources (1000/1000). With a 10% buff increase on resources most servers should be able to reach that now.
From a "continuity" point of view I have a problem with justifying this (a resource has the same specific characteristics regardless of how much dancing or playing you do, if you don't believe my try it at home...), while other Inspiration proposals makes more sense (sockets, assembly/experimentation points, etc.).
I am against this, it will devalue the crafting and resource management part of the game (the very reason I play this game in the first place). IF they choose to go ahead with it, they should at least reduce the amount of buff to between 2-5%, the consequences of a10% buff seem to be too large.
Caile,I hope you are still around to present our concerns to the Devs...
I'm all for reducing the amount of the buff (say to 1% or 2%), and am even more in favor of breaking up the buffs into either a resource, assembly, xp, or experimentation buff instead of one big catch-all, but I think the argument that it will help noob AS's craft at the same level as a veteran hasn't been paying attention. I'm a "noob", been at it only since the total experience came out, and with 10k credits have been able to pull enough resources out of the ground in the last two months to cap unlayered.
I only say that, because I think that is disgusting and there is no way I should be able to make armor that competes with your old stockpiled stuff after only a couple months, but I can. We need to change our caps before we can whine about the resource buff.
I still feel this is sort of a non-issue as far as AS is concerned, because of those stupid caps, but a HUGE issue to the crafter community as a whole. These buffs are too strong! I feel they will be a must to craft. There is no way at this point that they will NOT give the entertainers new buffs, so I believe that they need to broken up so you must CHOOSE between a buff to experimentation (great when hand crafting), xp (for grinding), a more balance resource buff (for a factory schematic), or an assembly bonus (that quite honestly don't know what it is good for anymore).
This would be a much better system.
Nixen wrote:
What I don't like, is that any f***ing-body can now do what I do, withina month of playing. This makes what I do now, worthless.
That, I really don't like.
QFE
Message Edited by Slider067 on 08-24-2005 01:57 PM
LeviticusD wrote:
I'm a "noob", been at it only since the total experience came out, and with 10k credits have been able to pull enough resources out of the ground in the last two months to cap unlayered.
Just a small note, Lizzy. You came in at a very fortuitous time for armorsmith resources. We havehad several server-best (or close to it) spawns on the 'fin over the past few months. I doubt other servers have been so lucky.
Yeah, I guess I can't speak for everybody...but even still, I don't think I should be making the same stuff you are already, to be honest even if I was lucky. I didn't mean that to be a shot at the veterans whining, it was meant to be a shot at the current system....one that will be worse with a 10% resource buff. Sorry if anybody took it that way.
I'm from a red state!
I want to EARN the best stuff, not have it given to me! The answer I still believe is to split the buffs up and reduce the resource buff to 2%.
(1)I completely agree with KC (?) who said that this was like doc-buffs all over again. This means that in order to do any crafting, you will have to go get buffed in the starport cantina first. What happened to the "log in and play for an hour" that they promised to deliver with the CU?
(2) To whoever said that 2 cpu resources are not going to work: Maybe not, but it's close. If the resources get a flat 10% increase, this means that armor that was previously 5450 base (6000-280-3*90) will now be capped. I don't know how you run your businesses, but I have made runs of 5300 armor using mainly crap resources. A 10% increase in quality does not mean that there will be just "more" resources that can cap armor, in effect it means around a factor 5-10 increase in the amount of resources that can be used to cap armor.
(3) It totally eliminates the "great" resources that you would consider spending resource crates on, as any resource within 90% of the cap of that particular resource will be just as good. Effect: Resource crates will drop to half price within a few weeks.
As someone who has been playing for just around one year, I am quite proud with finally having assembled a very nice and large stock of the best resources my server ever had. I am not one of the big guys on my server, but my resource stock, which is currently worth.. let's say 100 million,will now be worth 10 million at best. Why use that ancient Phrik aluminum that I have 250k of and have saved for special occasions, when I now can choose between 20 different other Phrik's that are just as good?
(3) This will make it much easier for newer crafters to compete with veterans who have spenttens of millions to be able to produce capped armor. (Like me, yeah, I whine about this, I know).
This can be viewed as a good thing for some, but in all honesty I'm not that altruistic. What's the point for me? I have worked hard*(and I know many of you have worked both harder and longer than me) to be able to make large quantities of capped armor, and I have gathered ws resources since I began playing. Sure, it is nice to help people, and I do that. A lot. I help newer crafters on my server to get started, even if they will be competition one day. That's fine. I like that.
What I don't like, is that any f***ing-body can now do what I do, withina month of playing. This makes what I do now, worthless.
That, I really don't like.
Feomatar wrote:
pykescylla wrote:
Stupid forum ate my first reply.
This buff is going to further homogenize armor crafting. Suddenly it is going to much easier to cap armor. My grind quality assault is 6900 kinetic. It will easily cap with a 10 percent boost. Suddenly my second-rate 873 polymer (avg OQ and SR) becomes 960, eclipsing the server-best 919 polymer that just spawned. Of course, the 919 polymer is now a perfect 1000/1000 resource, and I have more than a million units and still harvesting.
The pool of useful resources suddenly increases, which should drop prices significantly (except for stuff that isn't spawning, like that dang vintrium). More smiths will be able to go into business making competive products. Forget armor decay; masses of cheap capped armor will soon hit the market. Forget about improving your layered armor point by point; you're going straight to the layered cap, too.
Unlike the inspiration buff, this buff will truly be a necessity. Who's going to use 20 cpu resources when 8 cpu ones will do? I like the fact that inspiration buffs now affect the chance of an amazing success. The problem is that an amazing success mean little to nothing in armor crafting.
Lastly, I think this removes one of the last bits of fun in crafting: the excitement of discovering a new resource and of improving your product. We will be a service of the game, grinding out essentially identical armor (since factories only produce one color it seems).
I love the fact that entertainers are getting some attention. They are unique to SWG. But is this attention at the expense of the crafting community? I think it is. I say let entertainer buffs continue to increast the chance of an amazing success, but make an amazing succes MEAN something to armorsmiths.
Many of us grind away at our real-life jobs because we need them to buy food, put a roof over our head, and pay for high-speed Internet. It often isn't fun. Our on-line jobs should be. Don't continue to move us toward a blue-frog role, spitting out armor and weapons for the combat players.
Good post, i totally agree.
Jeterb wrote:
Feomatar wrote:
pykescylla wrote:
Stupid forum ate my first reply.
This buff is going to further homogenize armor crafting. Suddenly it is going to much easier to cap armor. My grind quality assault is 6900 kinetic. It will easily cap with a 10 percent boost. Suddenly my second-rate 873 polymer (avg OQ and SR) becomes 960, eclipsing the server-best 919 polymer that just spawned. Of course, the 919 polymer is now a perfect 1000/1000 resource, and I have more than a million units and still harvesting.
The pool of useful resources suddenly increases, which should drop prices significantly (except for stuff that isn't spawning, like that dang vintrium). More smiths will be able to go into business making competive products. Forget armor decay; masses of cheap capped armor will soon hit the market. Forget about improving your layered armor point by point; you're going straight to the layered cap, too.
Unlike the inspiration buff, this buff will truly be a necessity. Who's going to use 20 cpu resources when 8 cpu ones will do? I like the fact that inspiration buffs now affect the chance of an amazing success. The problem is that an amazing success mean little to nothing in armor crafting.
Lastly, I think this removes one of the last bits of fun in crafting: the excitement of discovering a new resource and of improving your product. We will be a service of the game, grinding out essentially identical armor (since factories only produce one color it seems).
I love the fact that entertainers are getting some attention. They are unique to SWG. But is this attention at the expense of the crafting community? I think it is. I say let entertainer buffs continue to increast the chance of an amazing success, but make an amazing succes MEAN something to armorsmiths.
Many of us grind away at our real-life jobs because we need them to buy food, put a roof over our head, and pay for high-speed Internet. It often isn't fun. Our on-line jobs should be. Don't continue to move us toward a blue-frog role, spitting out armor and weapons for the combat players.
Good post, i totally agree.
I agree, very well put.
I completely disagree... I think we already are making the same armor. Since armor is done on a logarythmic scale the difference between 5800 Base armor and 6000 base armor is really insignificant. If you look at it over the course of a battle what does it save? maybe 30 Health, which isn't even one hit. So to say "We're going to all be making the same stuff" is kinda silly, because we are already making the same stuff.
Also i don't think the 10% increase will work the way some people think it will. If you look at the base experimentation percentage before you actually experiment in, which is probably is where the 10% increase in resource quality will take place (since this is the main thing the quality of resources controls). It will also affect the number of experimentation boxes you are able to get into. The best base exp % i have heard of is 29%, and the best my stuff has ever been is 27%. Now i don't know how many base experimentation points it takes to gain one more experimentation bar but a 2-3% increase in base experimentation is going to add at most one experimentation point. Meaning this buff will turn an 11pt crafter into a 12pter, or a 10pter into an 11 pt crafter.
I saw somwhere that somoeone says that these buffs are going to make 5450 armor into maxed out 6k, and i don't think this was really well thought out.
Circe' Pojia Editted, found the post.
Message Edited by f33d84ck on 08-25-2005 07:49 AM
linusboarder wrote:
Jeterb wrote:
Feomatar wrote:
pykescylla wrote:
Stupid forum ate my first reply.
This buff is going to further homogenize armor crafting. Suddenly it is going to much easier to cap armor. My grind quality assault is 6900 kinetic. It will easily cap with a 10 percent boost. Suddenly my second-rate 873 polymer (avg OQ and SR) becomes 960, eclipsing the server-best 919 polymer that just spawned. Of course, the 919 polymer is now a perfect 1000/1000 resource, and I have more than a million units and still harvesting.
The pool of useful resources suddenly increases, which should drop prices significantly (except for stuff that isn't spawning, like that dang vintrium). More smiths will be able to go into business making competive products. Forget armor decay; masses of cheap capped armor will soon hit the market. Forget about improving your layered armor point by point; you're going straight to the layered cap, too.
Unlike the inspiration buff, this buff will truly be a necessity. Who's going to use 20 cpu resources when 8 cpu ones will do? I like the fact that inspiration buffs now affect the chance of an amazing success. The problem is that an amazing success mean little to nothing in armor crafting.
Lastly, I think this removes one of the last bits of fun in crafting: the excitement of discovering a new resource and of improving your product. We will be a service of the game, grinding out essentially identical armor (since factories only produce one color it seems).
I love the fact that entertainers are getting some attention. They are unique to SWG. But is this attention at the expense of the crafting community? I think it is. I say let entertainer buffs continue to increast the chance of an amazing success, but make an amazing succes MEAN something to armorsmiths.
Many of us grind away at our real-life jobs because we need them to buy food, put a roof over our head, and pay for high-speed Internet. It often isn't fun. Our on-line jobs should be. Don't continue to move us toward a blue-frog role, spitting out armor and weapons for the combat players.
Good post, i totally agree.
I agree, very well put.
I completely disagree... I think we already are making the same armor. Since armor is done on a logarythmic scale the difference between 5800 Base armor and 6000 base armor is really insignificant. If you look at it over the course of a battle what does it save? maybe 30 Health, which isn't even one hit. So to say "We're going to all be making the same stuff" is kinda silly, because we are already making the same stuff.
Also i don't think the 10% increase will work the way some people think it will. If you look at the base experimentation percentage before you actually experiment in, which is probably is where the 10% increase in resource quality will take place (since this is the main thing the quality of resources controls). It will also affect the number of experimentation boxes you are able to get into. The best base exp % i have heard of is 29%, and the best my stuff has ever been is 27%. Now i don't know how many base experimentation points it takes to gain one more experimentation bar but a 2-3% increase in base experimentation is going to add at most one experimentation point. Meaning this buff will turn an 11pt crafter into a 12pter, or a 10pter into an 11 pt crafter.
I saw somwhere that somoeone says that these buffs are going to make 5450 armor into maxed out 6k, and i don't think this was really well thought out.
The problem with what you just said is that you didnt read. There will be a buff to increase the resource quality by 10%. This means an 896 oq 997 shock intrusive ore is now 986 oq and 1097 shock. Now when you figure that into the math equation when figuring resists, it will make for capped armor almost everytime. You tell me mate, what challenge is it when you are able to hit the cap on armor everytime?
This was why the cu changed armor to begin with. SOE was upset with all the 80 kin 80 energy 80 elec 72 base armors that were in the market. IT made it to where the monsters were not a challenge. Now, with this buff they are gonna bring that right back. Instead of now having just comp armor though, you now have padded, comp, and ubese armor with the maxxed stats almost everytime.
freedomwarrior wrote:
The problem with what you just said is that you didnt read. There will be a buff to increase the resource quality by 10%. This means an 896 oq 997 shock intrusive ore is now 986 oq and 1097 shock. Now when you figure that into the math equation when figuring resists, it will make for capped armor almost everytime. You tell me mate, what challenge is it when you are able to hit the cap on armor everytime?
This was why the cu changed armor to begin with. SOE was upset with all the 80 kin 80 energy 80 elec 72 base armors that were in the market. IT made it to where the monsters were not a challenge. Now, with this buff they are gonna bring that right back. Instead of now having just comp armor though, you now have padded, comp, and ubese armor with the maxxed stats almost everytime.
I did read. I understand what you're saying, and I understand what was said before. I just disagree. People are making this a one-to-one conversion when there's no evidance that this is the case. I understand that all resources above 919, now become 1000 quality. People are assuming that because the resources go up 10%, that the final resists on all the armor goes up 10%. I am saying that in all likelyhood it's adding, at maximum, one box of experimentation to the experimentation phase of crafting the armor. one experimentation box doesn't make that much difference. I really want to test this on TC, however i cannot download TC, so i am stuck relying on others for info, which means i don't get to run the tests i want to run.
I don't like this talk of "I need a challenge to hit the cap. This will make it too easy" That's absurd. There is 2 ways to make a fine quality crafted item in this game.
1) Start with enough money that you can buy the best resources.
2) Play long enough and wait long enough that the best resources spawn and you can collect them when they do.
That's it. That's the list. There isn't any personal control over the item. Every Marauder Chestpiece that comes out that uses the same resources is exactly the same. The only variation in any of it is the color. As long as a Master AS made it it's the same, whether it was me who made it or some guy who just made master. Time, That's the only thing seperating the quality of good Crafters to the quality of poor crafters.
So where's the challenge? Is the challenge really sitting and waiting for the best resource to spawn and then mining (or creature harvesting) like crazy to get said resource? That's a challenge? I'll give you it's patience, and patience is a virtue, but let's not act like it's an accomplishment worthy of going on our resumés, unless of course you don't have any better examples of being patient.
I really find the "It will reduce my fun because it reduces the challenge" Argument very silly, unless of course you have A.D.D. and it IS an accomplishment to be patient.
What I think this does is make it easier for new crafters to make decent quality items. Let's be honest here the number of crafters is decreasing on all servers, and part (a HUGE part) of the reason is because it's very hard for a new Master Crafter to compete with a well established Crafter. If this helps attract new crafters to the game then I am all for it 100%. IF this change helps Dancers and Musicians become more than a sideshow in the game, then i am 100% for it.
Also we already DO hit the cap everytime. Maybe you didn't read, but as i'm sure all AS's know the armor protection is done on a logarythmic scale. Meaning 5800 base resist armor is basically the same as 6000 resist base armor. There isn't any real difference to it. We are already all hitting the cap and all armor is basically the same. All that's really different is the numbers in the /examine box.
In this game linus, no 5800 is not the same as 6000. That analogy is a joke and you know it. Yes the difference between 5800 and 6000 is not a large percentage, I think 1 or 2%, but that 1 or 2% does and will make a difference.
Secondly, your talking about new smiths getting into the market being harder. Give me a break mate, I use to be a new smith back in the day as well, and had to work hard to get to where im at. Just like alot of other smiths who have been around awhile. Im sorry that the new smiths are having a hard time, but it was no different when I was coming up through the ranks as well. In addition, part of the challenge was collecting resources to hit caps or increase 1 or 2 points, well who cares now, go get a magical buff and hit it everytime on layered armors. Yea, most smiths hit the cap on the basic armors, but they dont on layered.
In addition, it was tested mate and its not just on experimentation, but on resources. Read the TC notes. There are 4 buffs now, 1 for better assembly, 1 for experimentation, 1 for resource stat and forgive me I cant remember the other and dont want to go over and lose what Ive typed, I will edit down the road when im done.
If it was all about credits on this game mate, I would go hunt bh marks, because I can make more on the tapes being looted at the moment.