Armorsmith Archive
Thread: == HIGHER CORES = LOWER FINAL PRODUCT **edit** !!!!! ==
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Message Edited by -Sinaya- on 10-25-2005 11:57 AM
1) The OP made an energy-layered core that resulted in armor with X energy protection.
2) The OP made another energy-layered core using a couple of different materials that resulted in better resists for the core, but the final product's energy protection was X-3.
The OP is not asking why the energy protection went up but why it went DOWN.
There are only two scenarios here that I can see.
A. If the original cores were not capped, then improving the core resources should have resulted in better cores, resulting in a better final combine, resulting in better layered resists.
B. If the original cores WERE capped and the next set of cores were made with (I'm assuming) the same layer and segment resources, the resists of the armor should have stayed exactly the same.
So the question being asked is why did better resources result in lower resists? We're dragging a lot of baggage into this discussion based on questions many other people have asked and continue to ask. I know we all get tired of it, but we should at least pay close attention to the actual question and not just assume we know what is being asked.
The changes made to the way resource quality is calculated that came with Publish 24 do not affect us much. The Mustafar resources essentially blew the caps off the conductivity of ferrous metals. This only affects our PSG crafting.
The obvious (meaning we think of it first) answer to the OP's problem is that if the core resources improved, then resources must have changed somewhere else. The OP needs to confirm that the same resources were used in the second core's segments and layers. Having or not having a buff could also play a role but I would expect it's influence to be more dramatic than three measly points.
If resources didn't change, I can't think of anything that would explain the three-point drop.
pykescylla wrote:
Back to the concerns of the original poster. Maybe I'm reading something wrongly or differently from the rest of you, but this does not seem to be a case of wondering why better cores don't result in better layered resists.
1) The OP made an energy-layered core that resulted in armor with X energy protection.
2) The OP made another energy-layered core using a couple of different materials that resulted in better resists for the core, but the final product's energy protection was X-3.
The OP is not asking why the energy protection went up but why it went DOWN.
There are only two scenarios here that I can see.
A. If the original cores were not capped, then improving the core resources should have resulted in better cores, resulting in a better final combine, resulting in better layered resists.
B. If the original cores WERE capped and the next set of cores were made with (I'm assuming) the same layer and segment resources, the resists of the armor should have stayed exactly the same.
So the question being asked is why did better resources result in lower resists? We're dragging a lot of baggage into this discussion based on questions many other people have asked and continue to ask. I know we all get tired of it, but we should at least pay close attention to the actual question and not just assume we know what is being asked.
The changes made to the way resource quality is calculated that came with Publish 24 do not affect us much. The Mustafar resources essentially blew the caps off the conductivity of ferrous metals. This only affects our PSG crafting.
The obvious (meaning we think of it first) answer to the OP's problem is that if the core resources improved, then resources must have changed somewhere else. The OP needs to confirm that the same resources were used in the second core's segments and layers. Having or not having a buff could also play a role but I would expect it's influence to be more dramatic than three measly points.
If resources didn't change, I can't think of anything that would explain the three-point drop.
I did change the resources in the segments and had a mind buff for all crafting and after reading stickies, searching about a bit wrote this because as is said in many posts these changes were ONLY supposed to affect sheild generators BUT obviously not or I would have better results on my final product with better cores wouldn't I ??
Message Edited by Sarracen on 10-25-2005 03:43 PM
I've had no change in my segment or layer stats since the publish.
Hey - It is MY JOB to get mad at people for not reading the stickies - you just keep writing them guides that you do so well :-D
WittyNewt wrote:
same sets of questions over and over again,
"I don't get 400 on my final combine, what gives?"
"I am using better segment and/or core resources and making uber 5854 cores but my energy protection doesn't go up to uber levels, it stays at 7135, same as for my 5623 cores, what gives?"
This is all explained in the stickies and in about 5 posts on every forum page.
Sarracen wrote:
I did change the resources in the segments and had a mind buff for all crafting and after reading stickies, searching about a bit wrote this because as is said in many posts these changes were ONLY supposed to affect sheild generators BUT obviously not or I would have better results on my final product with better cores wouldn't I ??
Message Edited by Sarracen on 10-25-2005 03:43 PM
The $64K question is did you change anything in your layer resources or layers at all? Looking at the core stats you posted it looks like you are capped for both sets of cores so only a change in layers could explain the difference.
I completely agree with Pyke, I have seen no change in my non PSG armor maths after pub 24, only CD was effected.
As I said, we are only talking about a 0.25 drop to each layer to result in a 3 point total drop. It could even be that one of the layers you used out of the 4 per segment the 2nd time round was 1 point lower, so a 3 point drop again.
I typically combine multiple layer runs in a segment run even when I am hand crafting stuff, say use crates of layers from 4 different runs at the segment stage. If you did the same and picked up a crate from a different run with lower stats the 2nd time round then this would explain it.
Also remember that when you examine a layer crate you only see the whole number protection stat. There is a hidden decimal there. You might examine 2 crates from different runs that were made with similar but not the same resources and see a 97 protection value. However, this could just as easily be 97.1 or 97.9 and you would not know until you combined them at the segment stage and saw the hidden decimals add up
A lot to read... I noticed something last night that I thought was a bit weird while crafting some Energy Layers.
I run 4 sets of 1000 Energy layers so I can make 1000 segments total.
While I was crafting using a buff, food, drink, cap assembly and experiment clothing in a research city. (The full monty)
While using the exact same resources I had a different result on one of my layer schematics. (as you know they dont display correctly until you do the factory runs)
on my first layer I started out with a +11 Energy and was able to experiment it up to 96% (i.e. a +96 Energy layer)
On layers 2-4 using the exact same everything I started out with a +12 Energy with a final experimentation of 97%... I scratched my head then deleted the schem for the 96% and recrafted it and it matched the 2nd, 3rd and 4th layers at a +12 start and a 97% final experiment.
Using the math with all layers at 97% ---- 97*12=1164 I should have a final combine (after appearance) of 7164 Energy on my RIS... had I not noticed the oddity I would have had a 97*8 + 96*4 = 1160 for a final combine of 7160 energy... a 4 point difference. Maybe you suffered something like this?
I think there's also a misinterpretation of what's going on here with the resources.
Unnamed (any slot that takes Mineral, Metal, or Steel/Iron/Copper/Aluminum) will be affected by stat caps. Of these resources on Copper has a stat cap on SR. But if it's a named resource (Mythra Copper, Thallium Copper) then the resource gates are calculated the same as pre-pub 24. Since the Copper slot in a Recon segment can be filled by any copper (including the Shipwright and now Mustafarian copper) there is no gate on it. But, you ask, what about the copper in advanced cores? Well, since it's probably a named resource, this change won't have affected it.
So if you're getting lower or higher anything it's because you're using different resources (as was admitted) and with new resources means you have to totally redo your calculations. You can't use different numbers and always expect to get the same answer. I would go with pyke and mr. meanie above me when it comes to the difference in your numbers.
Lol, and I apologised for my tone as well
cl0kwerq wrote:
I think there's also a misinterpretation of what's going on here with the resources.
Unnamed (any slot that takes Mineral, Metal, or Steel/Iron/Copper/Aluminum) will be affected by stat caps. Of these resources on Copper has a stat cap on SR. But if it's a named resource (Mythra Copper, Thallium Copper) then the resource gates are calculated the same as pre-pub 24. Since the Copper slot in a Recon segment can be filled by any copper (including the Shipwright and now Mustafarian copper) there is no gate on it. But, you ask, what about the copper in advanced cores? Well, since it's probably a named resource, this change won't have affected it.
So if you're getting lower or higher anything it's because you're using different resources (as was admitted) and with new resources means you have to totally redo your calculations. You can't use different numbers and always expect to get the same answer. I would go with pyke and mr. meanie above me when it comes to the difference in your numbers.
CGGuns wrote:
A lot to read... I noticed something last night that I thought was a bit weird while crafting some Energy Layers.
I run 4 sets of 1000 Energy layers so I can make 1000 segments total.
While I was crafting using a buff, food, drink, cap assembly and experiment clothing in a research city. (The full monty)
While using the exact same resources I had a different result on one of my layer schematics. (as you know they dont display correctly until you do the factory runs)
on my first layer I started out with a +11 Energy and was able to experiment it up to 96% (i.e. a +96 Energy layer)
On layers 2-4 using the exact same everything I started out with a +12 Energy with a final experimentation of 97%... I scratched my head then deleted the schem for the 96% and recrafted it and it matched the 2nd, 3rd and 4th layers at a +12 start and a 97% final experiment.
Using the math with all layers at 97% ---- 97*12=1164 I should have a final combine (after appearance) of 7164 Energy on my RIS... had I not noticed the oddity I would have had a 97*8 + 96*4 = 1160 for a final combine of 7160 energy... a 4 point difference. Maybe you suffered something like this?
Now this is worrying, I have not exeperienced this at all and I have doen alot of handcrafting recently. I have noticed that the crafting buff doesn't always seem to stick but that has been when I try to apply a new one when the old is still active.
Dynamic-Earl wrote:
Ok heres what you wanted to know. It has to do with something your are totaly missing, and bad game mechanics in my opinion. When you are making the schem for your cores, the game is taking into account the kinetic resistance + energy resistance cap and altering your energy resistance instead of the kinetic like you would like it to. Basicly because your segs are better this time they have a higher kinetic resistance so its giving you a lower energy resistance. I noticed this when making energy layered recon. The only way around this is to use better energy layers. I am asuming yours are around 94-95 range. You will need to up it wich may not be possible on your server in order to put the energy higher up on the segs over the kinetic so this doesnt happen again. It is an issue that I have brought to the devs attention and the resonse I got was basicly the kinetic resistance is listed first so its resistance goes in the total equation first. There is a cap of the total of the kinetic and energy together like on Recon if the energy is 8150 the kin will be 3850, if the energy is 8100 the kin will be 3900, its capped at 12000 between the two. I beleive battle is capped at 13k between the two as of now.
This is not a bug or bad game mechanics at all. Its just the way things work with an unlayered cap being applied. Layers work independently of segments and cores in terms of caps. Unlayered armor has a cap and layers stats are applied on top of that cap.
In theory an advanced core could reach 6000 base, 3k from segments and 3k from core resources when you work out the resource to protection value maths. On top of this the final combine adds 400, so if there was no cap you could with perfect resources make armor with a 6400 base. Now the developers have applied a 6000 cap and so if you have a core with greater than 5600 stats you will effectively see less than the 400 final combine adder.
Layers have no cap. Perfect resources yield a 100% layer which corresponds to a 100 point standard layer (energy, kinetic etc) and a 50 point advanced layer (primus etc). 12 layers per advanced core equals a total of 1200 or 600 bonus for standard and advanced layers.
So, if we had no unlayered cap, we could in theory make 8600E recon with perfect resources for all components (7400 + 1200)
Your analysis is flawed because you are trying to compare energy layers with primus layers and are neglecting the fact that primus reduces base while increasing kinetic and energy and energy works in opposition to kinetic only.
I could primus layer recon and get the same 13K figure as you quoted for battle.I see no problem with how this is working, its basically a result ofthe devs applying a base capand this is why you see the apparent descrepancy with energy/kinetic and primus since primus acts on base. Maybe I am missing something here?
energy layered recon 3850K 8150E 6000B
primus layered recon 5500K 7500E 5500B
primus layered battle 6500K 6500E 5500B