Architect Archive
Thread: Four Ideas to Improve the SWG Economy
Let me preface this by saying I am having a great time with the SWG journey, so this is in no way a rant. Just reopening some ideas, now that we're into our third month of Production.
1. Clothing Decay -- It's unclear to me, a non-Beta, why this was ever removed. Nearly anything made by a player needs to decay, with very few exceptions (perhaps decorative items should be exempted -- e.g. Nemoidian Birdcages). Clothing must decay when worn, and should be repairable in much the same way as a weapon. Clothing needs to decay at a rate that does not make it an irritation to the wearer to replace often, but forces the wearer to replace it eventually. More frequent repairs should extend the life of the garment.
2. Building decay -- this may be a little more difficult to implement, since this idea is not consistent with the weapon/armor model. Houses need to decay over time and the rate of maintenance needs to increase geometrically as they decay. A building at 1/2 "health" should cost 4x as much as a fully repaired building. It probably makes sense to lower the "new" maintenance costs significantly in this scenario.
Buildings need 2 kinds of repair kits. One is a maintenance kit that brings the building up to full health but reduces the cap. This should probably come out of the Artisan line and should be similar to the weapon repair tool. The other is an "remodel kit" that comes out of the same line (and box?) as the original structure. The remodel kit raises the cap to it's original level. The remodel kit should contain components and structure modules as well as raw materials.
Larger buildings should have larger caps and perhaps decay more slowly than smaller.
(There is an opportunity here to add resource stat factor effects to architecture, but that may not be worth the effort to implement.)
3. Harvester Decay -- very similar to building decay. The repair kit/tool may be exactly the same as for buildings, but instead of a remodel kit we get an overhaul kit. Again, this should come out of the same box as the original machine, but, unlike the building remodel kit, the overhaul kit can never raise the cap to its original level. Eventually harvesters wear out. Big machines need a much higher cap than the smaller.
(Again, the opportunity to introduce quality stats to architecture, though the ROI may be insufficient.)
4. Limit the Datapad. When a high level artisan gets to a certain number of schematics they are "full" and must remove old ones in order to add new ones (they should be able to choose which to lose). This was a fantastic concept and I am at a loss as to why it was removed.
(Actually, since I am an old systems development veteran, I am pretty sure why a lot of things were removed: could not get them to work in time. Been there...)
None of this is new, but I thought it was time to expose these ideas again. Thanks to Aogwyn Falcor of Coventry for clarifying some of these ideas for me.
G'day, mates!
Bog
Let me preface this by saying I am having a great time with the SWG journey, so this is in no way a rant. Just reopening some ideas, now that we're into our third month of Production.
1. Clothing Decay -- It's unclear to me, a non-Beta, why this was ever removed. Nearly anything made by a player needs to decay, with very few exceptions (perhaps decorative items should be exempted -- e.g. Nemoidian Birdcages). Clothing must decay when worn, and should be repairable in much the same way as a weapon. Clothing needs to decay at a rate that does not make it an irritation to the wearer to replace often, but forces the wearer to replace it eventually. More frequent repairs should extend the life of the garment.
2. Building decay -- this may be a little more difficult to implement, since this idea is not consistent with the weapon/armor model. Houses need to decay over time and the rate of maintenance needs to increase geometrically as they decay. A building at 1/2 "health" should cost 4x as much as a fully repaired building. It probably makes sense to lower the "new" maintenance costs significantly in this scenario.
Buildings need 2 kinds of repair kits. One is a maintenance kit that brings the building up to full health but reduces the cap. This should probably come out of the Artisan line and should be similar to the weapon repair tool. The other is an "remodel kit" that comes out of the same line (and box?) as the original structure. The remodel kit raises the cap to it's original level. The remodel kit should contain components and structure modules as well as raw materials.
Larger buildings should have larger caps and perhaps decay more slowly than smaller.
(There is an opportunity here to add resource stat factor effects to architecture, but that may not be worth the effort to implement.)
3. Harvester Decay -- very similar to building decay. The repair kit/tool may be exactly the same as for buildings, but instead of a remodel kit we get an overhaul kit. Again, this should come out of the same box as the original machine, but, unlike the building remodel kit, the overhaul kit can never raise the cap to its original level. Eventually harvesters wear out. Big machines need a much higher cap than the smaller.
(Again, the opportunity to introduce quality stats to architecture, though the ROI may be insufficient.)
4. Limit the Datapad. When a high level artisan gets to a certain number of schematics they are "full" and must remove old ones in order to add new ones (they should be able to choose which to lose). This was a fantastic concept and I am at a loss as to why it was removed.
(Actually, since I am an old systems development veteran, I am pretty sure why a lot of things were removed: could not get them to work in time. Been there...)
None of this is new, but I thought it was time to expose these ideas again. Thanks to Aogwyn Falcor of Coventry for clarifying some of these ideas for me.
G'day, mates!
Bog
Point #1 - Absolutely! There needs to be more points to drain the economic pool to prevent mass inflation. Granted, I am not sure what the rate should be, but having to go get your clothing/armor repaired after taking damage makes sense at the minimum.
Point #4 - Cool idea. It would force tailors to keep a book of their favorite designs. Perhaps extra designs could be "banked" or such.
#4 used to exist. It was soundly, roundly, angrily, and many other negative "lys" out of the game by a unified and loud artisan community.
RbT
The idea of clothing decay is growing on me.
The idea of having to juggle500 items (Well stocked clothing vendor) between 10 lots partially taken by harvesters to get stuff into my new house after I have to replace it just doesn't float my boat and probably wouldnt work out too well for anybody else.
I DESPISE the idea of limited schematics. People won't keep the less popular schematics for things. Architects willing to make things within the month are hard enough to run down as is. Finding one with a schematic for a medium flora farm would be hell. Why? Because they've deleted that one because it just doesn't sell well enough! Oh... and clothing would end up being even duller than it is now. People will keep their camos and dusters and fleshwraps and throw out the less popular (but still loved) stuff.
You must not be a crafter...
I have been going back and forth over the 'limited schematics' notion since it was first mentioned to me, er.. a month or so ago. *laughs*
On the one hand, it frees up the market for novice tailors, if master tailors can only make master-wear and some tier IV items -- great!On the other hand, it leads to a state in which everyone can make master-wear items, and no-one can make anything else at all, assuming that we don't have a continuous influx of novice tailors -- which, in the long run, limits the overall variety of items that can be obtained in the game. Not so great.
It promotes variety, since everyone's making different assortments of items -- great! It limits variety, assuming that people continue to advance to Master level. Not so great. In fact, there's the potential that someone at Tier III of Field Wear, for instance, might simply choose never to advance to Master, since this would loose them some great-selling items (dusters, for instance). The end result is a glut of master-level items, and resulting price-drops of those, since they're all that anyone is able to buy.
So let's say that people can choose which schematics to keep, and which to abandon. Again, you end up with a market full of Grand Ball Gowns and Healer's Robes, plenty of camo pants and dusters -- and absolutely none of the more 'unusual' items that folks like to take a risk on selling now and then.. and which can look very good indeed.
As far as I can tell, the system limits itself without this being necessary. As tailors progress, they gravitate towards selling the higher-end -- and more expensive -- items anyway, leaving the market open for novice tailors who can sell the packs, simple outfits and cloaks, for instance, that everyone still wants.
Yes I'm all for decay on clothes. Its rediculous that they took it out in the first place. I mean gees clothes wear out, and tailors make so little sales as it is since most players are into body wear for protective values and wear armor all the time. Clothing at this point has been reduced to a purely roleplaying element. Clothing needs to add subtle effects like a small HAM bonus.
I wouldnt mind some kind of decay system for buildings, Im a master Architech on intrepid and I think any kind of decay system would have to be something repairable to the standing structure itself due to the nature of lots and building zones etc. Faction bases have the ability to donate materials and or cash. I think using the same software mechnics mechanics a feature could be set up for repairs by adding materials to the building via the access panel. THIS IS A FUNCTION THAT ONLY AN ARCHITECH SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS. I say that because there is no point in adding a decay feture THAT CAN BE REPAIRED unless the repairs are limited to those in the relevent profession. Clothes should be repaied by tailors, armor by armorsmiths, weapons by weaponsmiths and droids by droid engineers.
the repair tool interface needs to be changed. There needs to be a function that lets both parties view the action as in a type of trade window. The tool and the item need to be clearly seen in this window and the end result needs to be listed in some fashion. If the repair fails there needs to be a junk item left behind listing whst the item was so players can have proof that the item was not stolen if a window system cant be created. Also i think repaires should require a crafting station that allow the expermentation process to be activated so that its not a hit and miss deal and so that repairs arent made in the field which is unrealistic.
This kind of system will keep the trades active and allow some kind of income and at the same time proving a much greater need for master artisan electronics for stations and tools as well as create a money sink that the devs are struggling to maintain. My point is this really, if only a jedi can build and repair a lightsaber then shouldn't it be the same for all trades?
"I DESPISE the idea of limited schematics. People won't keep the less popular schematics for things. Architects willing to make things within the month are hard enough to run down as is. Finding one with a schematic for a medium flora farm would be hell. Why? Because they've deleted that one because it just doesn't sell well enough! Oh... and clothing would end up being even duller than it is now. People will keep their camos and dusters and fleshwraps and throw out the less popular (but still loved) stuff. "
I think each elite artisan class should be able to retain all the schematics in their repertoire -- so a Master Tailor should be able to make everything in the Tailor line -- but may have to give up Bofa Treats and Casual Pants to those who have only Master Artisan and lower. So a master architect would always have the medium flora farm...
Karmalina wrote:
"You must not be a crafter..."
Bognor Regis was planning to be a Master Artisan and Ranger, but gave up Master Artisan after finding that it was useless. Nothing in there that anyone really wants. At one time he was going to go into the fiberplast panel, droid battery and bone armor segment business (because I did not realize that schematics were no longer limited). Thus my desire to see the lower level items limited to lower level artisans.
Bog
"The idea of having to juggle 500 items (Well stocked clothing vendor) between 10 lots partially taken by harvesters to get stuff into my new house after I have to replace it just doesn't float my boat and probably wouldnt work out too well for anybody else."
I'm sorry, I must not have been clear on items 2&3. I never advocate a redeeding. The Kits would be consumed either through the radial on the kit or through the building management terminal and the condition and cap of the building would be adjusted appropriately. It just gives the architects a business opportunity (repair and remodel kits) afte rthe structure market dries up.
Thanks for the feedback. I enjoy a well reasoned discussion with people who know what they are talking about.
Bog
"I wouldnt mind some kind of decay system for buildings, Im a master Architech on intrepid and I think any kind of decay system would have to be something repairable to the standing structure itself due to the nature of lots and building zones etc. Faction bases have the ability to donate materials and or cash. I think using the same software mechnics mechanics a feature could be set up for repairs by adding materials to the building via the access panel. THIS IS A FUNCTION THAT ONLY AN ARCHITECH SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS. I say that because there is no point in adding a decay feture THAT CAN BE REPAIRED unless the repairs are limited to those in the relevent profession. Clothes should be repaied by tailors, armor by armorsmiths, weapons by weaponsmiths and droids by droid engineers."
I think if the repair kits for buildings come out of the elite Architect profession, rather than the starting Artisan profession, your problem would be solved. Our Coventry Master Architect (Norel, The Big Fat Pink Zabrak) is so slow and helpless that he would have difficulty making it out to a lot of structures in remote and dangerous places. But if the repair kits were limited to the profession and level that made the item (only Master Architects could make PA Hall repair and remodel kits, and they would be fairly expensive) that would be solved.
This is true for any item with an infinite life, like buildings, but for things that decay -- thus creating a replacement market -- the Artisan repair tools are OK, I think.
Bog
I think each elite artisan class should be able to retain all the schematics in their repertoire -- so a Master Tailor should be able to make everything in the Tailor line -- but may have to give up Bofa Treats and Casual Pants to those who have only Master Artisan and lower. So a master architect would always have the medium flora farm...
One of the problems I saw with tailoring schematic revocation in beta was... tailors gain colors as they go up in level. So if you revoke schematics as we advance in level, then there can never be bright red shorts or bright blue short sleeve shirts. Further relegating artisan level clothes to unwanted status.
RelixLTD wrote:
Yes I'm all for decay on clothes. Its rediculous that they took it out in the first place.
The reason they took it out was that it decayed even when you weren't wearing it... Or even logged on for that matter! You'd log on and all your clothes would have decayed into nothingness. You would basically come in naked. And stuff in your inventory diassapeared too...
Now if they can come up with a general wear algorithim that works globally, that would be wonderfull... But they're having trouble comeing up with one that can be used generically.
I got an idea for improving SWG economy and its only 1 thing really.
Have the dev's stop trying to hamper cash flow into the game. I've played in Ultima Online (UO), Everquest (EQ) and Dark Ages of Camelot (DAoC). The only game thats had a real player based economy was UO, dev's hardly touched it, sure some people had money and some people didn't. What is SOOO bad about having too much money in a GAME. In UO my friends and I had so much money we'd do stupid stuff just for the heck of it and we had fun.. I had to have spent 50,000 gold pieces just to get the best poison, chest and trapper to trap the chest with poison just so I could put the chest in place of my friends in our house. He constantly trapped everyone elses and I wanted to teach him a lesson..Other days we'd put 100,000 gold pieces bounty on our friends, for the fun of it.
In EQ your always trying to either get the no drop items or sell your stuff for platinum to buy the non-no-drop uber items. EQ's problem is tradeskills make no serious cash. DAoC problem is once you had what you wanted there wasn't much else to do with money.
There were sinks in UO yes but cash flowed relatively freely if you knew how to get it and tradeskills gets you money w/o knowing how to get it other than knowing how to craft.
Having played all these games and especially EQ I know for a fact Sony has serious problems with letting people have too much money, they think people will get bored and stop playing. Sony can't help but seem to hinder people getting money and they don't seem to understand what an economy is.
List of hits to the economy that I know of.
Reduction in mission costs
Increase of Lair Hit points
Harvesting Animals
All these are screwing up the economy and Sony doesn't care.
To you nay sayers...would you have more fun if you had the money to buy the clothing needs you wanted? would you have more fun if you could buy extra suits of composite armor just to put them on display or buy those pets that your too lazy to get yourself or don't have the time to get. Would you get bored faster with the game or enjoy the game more? Slave away an hour of your time making money or Spend 30 mins of your time making money and spend the other 30 mins deciding if you want the R2 or R3 and in the end decide get them both give the one you don't like away.
Naisa Darklight - Master Tailor
The game never should have hit store shelves.