Architect Archive

/applaud

I see many people are understanding undercutting now. It's not about us wanting price fixing, it's about people selling for under the current market price. There's a line car dealers won't pass when haggling. It's what they paid for the car. That price is based on the manufacturer and what they paid to make the car.

Dayln and people like him are selling the car for less than they got it for, and they don't understand that. Unfortunatly for the rest of us, people then expect the rest of the car dealers to sell at that price too. Glad I'm not a car dealer.

"raw material worth even at a4cr a unit"

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http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=architect&message.id=21678

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=architect&message.id=21603

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Ah good point as Pawlin reminded me not all servers are the same. If you live on a server where resources average 2cr on the open market you are doing well. Although I notice neither of the posts you cite are on your galaxy Pawlin. Regretably I on Eclipse resources go for 4-6 with rares or old going 10-30.

I think is HS for someone to tell me how to play a game I bought to ENJOY it not to come across with this pile of stupidity about socialism, comunism and all the isms...

I think if someone has the time to harvest their own resources and wants to sell cheap be my guest (this is why you can drop a class, SOE is wise) don't like it then pick something else or do us a favor to the people that are not so a**l retentive players and cancel the account, I mean seriously when I started reading this thread I thought it would be helpfull in some ways but after all the flaming just makes me want to sell for 1cpr just to spite people like you! I could leave my char picking resources all day while I am away from the pc and get 5k of metal in 6 hours (I have done this so can all of you), I think both have very strong points but when you start quoting court cases I started laughing my ass off, and thought "why I am bothering playing with people that take a GAME so seriously?"

Chill out is not like you HAVE to feed your children with FAKE GAME money.... Have fun relax sell at whatever the heck you feel like, it is a game )

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Dayln wrote:

Did you know that Standard Oil actually owns oilfields and the pumps that take the oil from the groud along with it own trucks that move the oil to its own refineries and the refined oil to its own franchised gas stations?

Did you know that Heinz actually owns some tomoato farms itself that grows the tomoatos along with the plants that make the ketchup and has a controling interest in the distributos of it?

Dont even get me started in the software industry,

Are you seraiously sugguesting that in SWG every archetect that is mining resources is doing something wrong, someting imoral? This is the first time I am absolutly sure I will get just about everyone to agree with me. Two head will hate doing it, but I bet he has harvestors running.

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Ok first of all, I will address the Standard Oil issue. The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 was actually used by President Taft in 1911 to dissolve Standard Oil and the American Tobaco Company. My source is www.infoplease.com. Just type in the Sherman Antitrust Act and it will bring you to the proper page.

For Heinz: You're telling me that Heinz has controlling interest in every grocery store chain across America that sells it's ketchup? I find that hard to believe. Furthermore it owning some tomato farms does not mean that it is using them to create price cutting of their products.

The software industry and more notably Microsoft has actually been dissolve to some extent. This was big news less than 10 years ago. The FTC decided that they were a monopoly and took them to court, or did you miss that?

And for your last point, no I don't think every architect is being immoral. I have nothing wrong with architects mining their own resources. The problem I have is when architects mine their own resources and then think that the resources have no intrinsic value to them. When said architects place their wares at less than the resources are worth it creates a void in which casual players cannot compete. This is not good business practice for anyone. Prices for wares should never be less than what the components are worth. If this was the case in the real world nobody would build anything.

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NeonEpitaph wrote:


Alright, I am completely failing to see how this illegal anywhere, or even an unfair advantage.

Do you think in real life that manufacturers don't look for the lowest prices on their supplies?

Lets have some examples. Two people are making hamburgers. One of those people bought their hamburger buns. The other person baked their own. The first person's cost for the buns is double the amount that the second person paid. Should the second person be forced to charge the same amount as the first?

Or, say you have two car makers. Both types of cars use the same materials with the same cost. But the second car maker is much better at making cars. The first type of car is clunky, loud, and breaks a lot. The second type runs flawlessly. Should both cars cost the same amount just because they used the same cost of materials?

Here is what is illegal: Price fixing and monopolys. Nobody has a monopoly in the game. Monopolys are defined by preventing competition. If someone was actually able to keep you from harvesting your own resources, you could claim that they had a monopoly. But no one can, and no one does.

Keep in mind that selling at a loss isn't illegal, either. the XBox costs way more to make then it is sold for. They make up the loss through the markup on actual games sold for the system.

The solution is to make buildings have some sort of differentiation. Without that, the economy will never be very good. Currently, the only difference in buildings is price, so the only reason to buy from seller A over seller B is if seller A is giving a better deal.

The solution for your problem, though, is to mine your own resources. He has a competitive advantage over you, but not an unfair one.

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Sigh. Ok this is illegal because of antitrust laws. He is running a verticle trust in order to price cut and freeze out local competition. Maybe not everyone has the time to run a mining operation and manufacturing operation. Which might I add are two completely seperate entities in the world.

Statement number two proves my point. A supplier, the miner, looks for a manufacturer, the architect. Yes the manufacturer is going to find the cheapest supplier, which in the game is about 3 credits/unit. Now if he runs a mining business then he cannot sell to himself for less than 3 credits a unit unless he is willing to sell to everyone for that price. The reason being is because it is illegal. What makes it illegal in the US is the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 which states it is illegal to have an exclusive sales contract. So the minute someone offers him 3 credits a unit then he has to outbid that person on his own resources.

Yes this is illegal if used to price cut or freeze out competition.

This is fine as long as neither company tries to sell for less than the cost to manufacture.

What is also illegal is verticle trusts which is what he is doing. Nobody here is trying to price fix. What we are trying to do is prevent people from selling wares for less than the resources are worth. Nobody said we all sell for 10 cpu and that's it.

Microsoft isn't that stupid. It doesn't cost them 100 bucks to make an distribute an XBox. They're making money trust me.

I agree with you here. That's why I want expirementation to matter and for decay to effect harvesters and factories.

This is not a solution. This is a problem.

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Pawlin wrote:

Or here: http://profs.lp.findlaw.com/antitrust/index.html

Guys, Dayln isn't the one who wants price fixing or cartels. He would not be "dumping" illegally unless you can prove his "cost" is more than his sale price and "market value" is not equivalent to "cost" of production.

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Yumm wrote:

I think is HS for someone to tell me how to play a game I bought to ENJOY it not to come across with this pile of stupidity about socialism, comunism and all the isms...

I think if someone has the time to harvest their own resources and wants to sell cheap be my guest (this is why you can drop a class, SOE is wise) don't like it then pick something else or do us a favor to the people that are not so a**l retentive players and cancel the account, I mean seriously when I started reading this thread I thought it would be helpfull in some ways but after all the flaming just makes me want to sell for 1cpr just to spite people like you! I could leave my char picking resources all day while I am away from the pc and get 5k of metal in 6 hours (I have done this so can all of you), I think both have very strong points but when you start quoting court cases I started laughing my ass off, and thought "why I am bothering playing with people that take a GAME so seriously?"

Chill out is not like you HAVE to feed your children with FAKE GAME money.... Have fun relax sell at whatever the heck you feel like, it is a game )

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Well I agree with you it's only a game, but what is occuring here is actually ruining some peoples enjoyment of the game. Furthermore the only reason all the court cases and real laws got brought in the mix is because Dalyn keeps claiming his business practices are sound and legal. So to prove that they are not requires actual laws.

I would like to ask you how many MMOGs you have played though? This game actually tries to create a virtual world. This means that anything I do effects you, and anything you do effects me. Since this is the case doesn't it make sense that we would all try to make the best game possible by helping each other out? What Dalynand others are doing is very anti-social at best. To me it is a form of griefing. Crafting to some of us is all this game is about. That's what we like to do in these games. To have an economy that we have now because of certain design decisions along with people that don't understand basic economics is rather frustrating at best. I personally feel it is worth being passionate about since it is what I pay my monthly fee for.

This is on the same level as the imbalance created by faction pets, more notably AT STs. PVE'rs aren't happy and get in long winded discussions about topics. Have you been in one of those per chance?

Ok ill jsut ad my 2 cents like this:

Why are you all complaining and whining? If you dont like your field then quit. If someone wants to sell at a certain price , all the power to him. There are no "laws" in SWG for what a buisness has to do. Im sure we can go in most "houses" you sell and there isnt any proper fire equiptment, or alarms, or insulation, or checks, and the sewage that had to be installed Im am far from one who knows baotu things, but from what i see most of you are taking things, that have no real bearing and twisting them to meet the circumstance. When talkign about anti-trust laws, you realize they have ot be a monopoly for it? Which doesnt mean selling for lower then a set "figure" , i know back in the old days where unions would strike on high prices , or on job payment. why is this? because they felt it wasnt fair. As for microsoft that is one hting i "do" know about as i am in the software industry. And the main thing against them was that they were becoming a "monopoly" they were not jsut underselling there competitors(sp?) they were down right buying them up. I havent seen anything in regards to anyone accully buying someon elses buisness in game and seekign to control enough of the total assests on a server to be able to single handly(sp?) effect the entire economy. If someoen is then it owuld be considered a monopoly.

If many people are selling less then the original companys, then thats is perfectly legal and safe "buisness" practices. In fact there is plenty of popel who sell for less then cost to get there buisness up and running jsut to make a name for themselves, then they can charge regular prices once they establish a clientel, or have a "rep" What i find is funny is your tryign to use laws "even if they did apply" that apply to monoploys not a single enetity thats not controling a fair share of the market by itself. I mean i can see why yoru upset, but its buisness but it seems there are soem knowledgeable people on this board, and i would prefer it if you kept things in the right context.

now as for the prices it seems he isnt even selling at a loss, as he states he is makign a profit. Which is totoal acceptable. And any person commiting himself to buisnes within SWG, will have to own ther eown harvesters if they want to compete at the top. How you htink it works in the real world? First they start off buying form a store usualy, and having to mark it up until they have enough, and a few contacts to start buying from the distrubitor for less, in which they can lower there prices to gain more buisnesss, while making more profit. Then at some point they can get it straight form the manufacter at even lower cost, and then what happens? They start buyign there own plants to make ther eproducts themselves obtaining the maximum profit margin they can achieve. So taking the 3-4 cred per resource isnt what the base is, its the cost of strippign the resources yourself, (which i have no idea of what that is on SWG) If your soo upset that someoen can sell lower then you because they own there own harvesters instead of buying it from the market, then you jsut havent commited yrouself that far yet and there is nothign stopping you. And if you say you don thave that much time, or things are interfering, or you want to explore the SWG universe some more, those are all jsut excuses and real life problems that interfere with buisness, jsut lile in everyday life.

One fo the hardest things in life is to start your own successful buisness. Some poeple jsut have that nack and others dont, but even one successful will take years to get to the poitn of a self-sustaining buisness. And you dont htink they have problems in life? but they make choices and giv eup alot of free time to make it profitable, and successful.

over all i find the atatcks on here distastful, and alot of popele throwing out accusations that have no meaning to the case at hand, or poeple it seems that are clueless, but are grabbign everything that othe rpoepel are saying and throwing it around.

Wether whos right or whos wrong i dont care, especialyl since its a game and im certainly not a judge, nor a game judge. So who here is appointed a regulator over the economy by Sony? Who here has the right to tell people what isnt right or what is right? Sure everyone can have yoru opinion, but i have missed th epost where someoen with the "proper authority within this universe" has declared this a wrong thing?

So what does this all mean?

why dont you all sepnd less time arguing and go play the game you seem to enjoy, and care so much about.

i tried to remain as neutral as i could, and hopefully it came across that way.

Erm, so you think it doesn't make sense that Architects can build Harvesters and Houses? I think it makes total sense that the Architect can build these structures. Building structures is what Architects do. Your not an Architect and really don't like Architects from what I can tell.

What is ashame is that there isn't a Miner/Farmer type profession which could get additional yields, credit per unit efficiency, power per unit efficiencies, and survey abilities. Why can a total novice place a harvester at a provided waypoint and get the same exact results as anyone else is a total mystery to me.

What is ashame is that there isn't a commodaties market where suppliers can sell their raw materials at a market price and that market price is constantly updated as materials are sold and purchased (Supply and Demand) If there was a clearly defined market value for the materials it would be a much easier matter to understand what the true costs of making the finished product are accounting for the opportunity costs.

When a company broadens their ability to also produce the materials required for the goods they manufacture they calculate the finished product based on the opporunity costs of using the generated resource. For example: Heinz grows Tomatoes to make Katchup. Part of the pricing formula will calculate the MARKET value of the tomatoes for the finished product.

Fidg'Ter

I have no problem with archetects mining thier own resrouces, others abovethink that, not me. I mine my own resources.

I personally think there should have been a seperate class called Miner or Industrialist that worked in extractrs. But that is just an opinion. Please do NOT include me in the group that says that Architects should not be allowed to usetheirown stuff, I am not one of those.

The architect tree is a bit too easy in my opinion, ( see my other post on the subject if you want to argue that ).

A few things needed to consider here. First and foremost, this is a game and only a game. Granted, you are dealing with real people, but this is not real life. So, don't take things so personally. If someone sells for less than you do, first of all, they may not know what the going rate is. Secondly, there are those of us, like myself, that aren't into arch for money. I actually enjoy the point and click of crafting. The stress of trying to get an order together in time to keep a client happy. I enjoy all of that. I don't do it for the money. Any money I make goes back into making other things, buying resources, or helping out my PA in any way I can. I do occasionally buy some new clothes or a new weapon or something. But, those times are rare.

For those archs that want to sell based on market value of resources...well, unfortunately, that's no possible. I'm not saying at all that it's the wrong way to think about things. I would personally love to say that even though I mine all my own resources, they are worth 3cpu to me w/out question...andtherefore I can sell them for 4 or 5 and make a good profit. Unfortunately, the SWG economy is just not gonna work that way. Unless you have a good return customer base, staying competitive in the SWG market requires you to base your prices off what it costs you...not what they are worth. Right now, it costs me about 0.6 credits per resource to mine ore and alum. So, I can sell at even 2 credits per resource and be making 140% proift. That's HUGE. And, I'm not worried about having money. What good is money in this game once you have made it to master, have a good business, and have bought everything you can? Granted, money is needed to buy resources and keep extractors powered and running. Add in a little cash on the side to keep yourself happy with new clothes, weapons, armor, etc. Find your break even point, and then try to sell at the point where you can have fun with the game. Why? Well, cause it's a game and it's meant to be fun.

I say this bluntly, but not meant to insult anyone. If dealing with extractors isn't fun for you. If having to find power and pay maintenence as well as trekking to your extractors isn't something you enjoy...if the sheer art of crafting (yes, I do mean the click click click click) doesn't excite you, then it might be time to find another profession. What good is having 1 million credits if you have nothing to buy? Having 1 million credits is great if you have other friends that are in need of some credits or you can provide housing for your PA for free with your credits. Granted, saving some credits to help with the Urban Planner grind is a good idea...that's all about planning ahead.

This profession is all about crafting. Since there is no miner profession, crafters must mine most of their own resources to stay competitive. So, please just enjoy your trade, don't take things personally, and just remember that this is a game...it's not life and death.

Anian

I was in the middle on this subject both literally (with my prices) and figuratively (in principle), but Dayln last paragraph really hit home! That's essentially what everybody is, starts with a B and rhymes with itching, about...people who mine their own resources.

Well excuse me! Between that attitude and masters who charge for training, being a team player just isn't happening anymore...this is crafting PvP. I'm dropping my prices to 2.9cr per unit of resource on principal!

I really don't think you need to tell us that we are playing a game. We all know that this is a game and we use a tool called a computer to get a virtual experiance for enjoyment. I have played online games for almost 10 years and it allways amazes me when people tell me "Man its just a game." Well what about football or base ball? That too is just a game and millions of people watch them.

So your game idea is retarted. The point is if we are trying to reproduce a virtual real life experiance then one of the biggest challenges to that is the economy. It has been a problem with almost all online games and instead of saying its just a game try telling that to all the major ball players in the world and if they don't listen to ya then head to the olimpics. Maybe they might...