Architect Archive
Thread: City ganking... Can you see it coming?
Meth0us wrote:
So what about guilds or groups of friends that just want some of the benefits of a player city? For example, I want to make a small city for teras kasi masters on lok, way out there but hopefully with a shuttleport or cloning facility so it's more livible. Some people will want private cities, some will want public, why can't we have it both ways?
Well, if it were private, people couldn't move in and take it from you. You see, they don't actually want to build or buy a city. Just profit from the fruits of someone elses labor. There's a word for that. Parasite.
Even though you pay taxes, that doesn't mean you helped build it, only maintain it. There is still a significant front end expense that you kinda' missed. It's called "all the crap you're now maintaining."
Ropockwrote:
4) so, based on your logic, no one but the person who paid for the city hall should ever have the opportunity or desire to be the mayor of your city? some people thrive on the opportunity to run a big business or a large city. That person may not know a ton of people in game, but if they can come into your city and develop enough of a rapport to get elected, then get re-elected in later weeks, whats bad about that?
Well,based on your logic, there's no reason I shouldn't just give you all my stuff... I mean, I have a very nice laser carbine... If you feel like becoming a carbineer, should I just give that to you too?
So, if yoursignificant otherlikessomeone elsebetter,they should get your house, furniture, car, lawnmower, barbecue, dog, and him/her? I mean, after all,they won the election 1 to 0,sothey get all the stuff, right? Fair? Or are you old enough to see the irony of your statement?
As for thriving "on the opportunity to run a big business or a large city"... Fine. Build one or buy one and run it. Taking over someone elses isn't necessary. I didn't see the place where you thrive on the oppurtunity to buy or buildthe city... Was that a typo? You have an avenue to attain your own. As for finite building space, economics will solve that problem.
You still havn't answered the question as to why you should be allowed to run a city that myself and my friends have paid for and built. So far, your best answer is, "Because I want to."
Yet I'm the selfish one because I don't feel the need to finance the political career of a total stranger. That just kills me.
Marduke Akkad
Marduke, you are forgetting one important issue. It's a CITY. Not a house, not a dog, not any other small thing that is owned. I own a house, I cannot own a city. I live in a city and that is the difference. I own a house that is part of a city I live in.They could not tell me that I could not build a house or buy a house andI pay maintenace in the form of taxes. I did not build any of the Civil structures (I help maintain them though), but someone did. They don't own it either. The government does. I get to vote because I am a resident, the mayor may not survive the election, even if he was the first mayor and a founding father. Someone else might control the governmentand I may not like him, but that is what makes it a city, not a house. If you want a house, then build a house, but you should never own a city. I do expect that the devs will make it hard to grief a city, but make them private, I sure hope not. If you do not want to gamble with people moving in and legally displacing your government, the don't build a city. Build it at your own risk, just like every other city in the world and be happy that a city and other structures can't be taken by force.
You seem to think that the building space, while finite is going to solve itself?? How?? When someone places a city hall in your area and kicks you out and there is no where else to place a hall, then what?? The rules of cities have been here in RL for millenium, but for some reason you want to treat a city as a personal estate, well guess what, they aren't. You also don't own the land, so finance your own politician, and if the opposing political party comes in and takes over, either adjust or move. It's what we are forced to do in every RL city.
I'm going to say it again...
If I paid for the City Hall and the civil structures, why can someone take them from me? I paid for it, did I not? Is it notreallymine?Wow... There's a great selling point for usArchitects.
"Yeah, 800K for a city hall. Just make sure you always win elections or it's all gone."
That'll look good on the brochure.
Am I to assume that just because it's a "City Hall", that I'm donating 80+K worth of materials to the galaxy? What kind of socialist trash is this?
Cities need the choice of being private. The trade off for being private is slower growth. Open cities will grow quickly and more then likely be in constant turmoil. Some people who play this game are not interested in the turmoil.
And by the way, private cities do still exist. Fircrest, Washington is one of them. You need to be approved by the community inorder to buy a house there. There are also things called covenents that regulate what happens inside communities.
Why do we need to use the model of modern US cities this game anyway? Explain how thats germane to the topic. Why would an Imperial ran city be democratic at all? I could easily understand the ability for the mayor to call for an election, but to be forced to run at all, let alone on a weekly basis, is asinine. If someone doesn't like life in that city, vote with your feet. Leave. It's that simple.
I'm really thinking the clue bus missed some people's stops.
Marduke Akkad
ok, let me respond to your reasons....
1. I don't know you.
why does that determine that i'm not allowed to run for mayor if i invested those fifteen points into the skill? lots of people don't know me and i don't know lots of people... that doesn't stop them from getting the skill and running for mayor... what, only people you know can run for mayor in your city?
2. I paid for and/or built the buildings you want to run. You spent 15 skill points (i.e.jack *self edit*).
again, what does the fact you paid for them have to do with it... if that was the case wouldn't the devs have made it so only the person who paid for the building or built it could be a mayor? oh, and if i did manage to live in the town I'd be paying taxes too, so guess what, I'd be paying for that building as much as you. and no offence, but 15 points is only the starting point and guess what... theres a lot of things someone can do with those 15 points somewhere else, so why you call it jack *self edit*... i call it a sizable investment in something someone would enjoy doing.
3. There are five buildable planets in the game eachwith16 sq km of land. Yet you want to live in the exact spot my city is at andfeel justified in running for mayor. Explain the logic in that.
actually, there are 6 or 7 buildable planets I believe, but that really has nothing to do with it. Let me give you a few logical reasons I might want to live in your city and/or run for mayor there.
1) if you are a specialized city you may be providing advantages in experimentation, or in assembly (fewer crit fails) so as a crafter it would appeal to me to live in your city to try to improve on the results of my crafting.
2) There is a lot of land, but not everyone has the same liking for every planet.... so, if you happen to build right in the area I like, why shouldn't i want to join the city?
3) Not everyone can afford to purchase a city hall... new players in particular... so, you're saying that because they haven't earned a lot of money that they shouldn't be able to be a mayor? show me where the correlation between lots of money and being a politician is exactly. I don't see that on any of the skill trees that state you must have earned a certain amount of money to use this skill.
4) so, based on your logic, no one but the person who paid for the city hall should ever have the opportunity or desire to be the mayor of your city? some people thrive on the opportunity to run a big business or a large city. That person may not know a ton of people in game, but if they can come into your city and develop enough of a rapport to get elected, then get re-elected in later weeks, whats bad about that?
Basically your arguments tend to indicate you are a bit selfish and saying, well, its mine, I paid for it and you can't play with it. And you seem threatened that one person might come in and be liked better than you.
Look, I don't like the idea of being griefed from the aspect of someone taking over and destroying the buildings, but aside from that, there's no reason I can see that should proclude everyone from having the opportunity from being a part of your city and running for office there.
As for The First Law of Thermodynamics applied to life... You can't get something for nothing. Guess what, it happens everyday, both in game and in the real world. What do you think a politician is?Or anyone above store level employees in any business... in essence they are leeches, taking a salary from someone elses work.
Well, lets see... if you paid for the hall and structures.... NO, its not really yours.... you gave it to the city.... as such its the cities buildings.... after the city hall, unless you WANT to donate, all structures can be purchased using the funds the city makes from taxes.
Are you to assume you are donating it to the galaxy? YES... thats what building a city is... the devs already stated they didn't intend to make cities private at the outset.
You provided the option for people that don't like the way the city is run to leave, but you don't think its right for someone else to move in and take advantage of the city's options? Throw out whether I should even be able to run for mayor. You feel I don't have the right to live there because "you got there first" basically.
Now, back to your other post... no, it wasn't a typo to not include buy or build a city....it was indeed intended to run a city. the only building that any one person buys is a city hall. Just because you buy it doesn't make it yours... once you put it downit becomes the residents of the town. other structures are bought by the city at the mayors discretion. I have no idea where the logic comes from that you should give me all your stuff... a house, a personal weapon, armor, all those type of things are owned by you personally.... the city hall isn't. The city hall is owned... BY THE CITY.
Again, why should I be able to run for election in your city? Because I did invest 15-61 points into the politcal skill. Because thats the way the political system works. Because if I can get enough people in "your" city to vote for me instead of you, then I deserve to get elected, do I not? If you're afraid you'll lose "your" stuff then don't spend the money to begin with. There is risk and reward in each of these things... When you build a city hall there should be some risk that someone else might get voted into office. If you do well enough then you probly won't ever have to worry about that happening, but if you built the city hall and are doing a poor job running the city, shouldn't the city populace have the opportunity to vote someone else into office?
Oh, as to how old I am? Trust me, I'm likely much older than you... Oh, and by the way, I've been divorced so your comment about the wife being able to just take your stuff... I've been thru that and is it fair that they get some of those things? Yes and no... I won't go into all the details of divorce law and why its there.
You're biggest assumption throughout all this is that this is "your" stuff when in fact it is the cities stuff. Once its put down its fair game much like faction bases are fair game in PvP.
Look, the odds are something like this won't happen in 90% of the cities out there. You'll build your city and if its far enough out, no one will want to move there and you can have your own little secluded following. But if you put down in a spot that lots of people want to live there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to move in and run for office once they've been there for a week or 2.
But wait. won't the mayor have the ability to ban players from the city and declare residential zones?
so the mayor just keeps the residential zones the area where current players are and bans those that move in the area to overrun?
From what I've read you don't get a vote for 7 days after you declare citizenship in a city, plenty of time to ban someone
Ropock wrote:
ok, let me respond to your reasons....
1. I don't know you.
why does that determine that i'm not allowed to run for mayor if i invested those fifteen points into the skill? lots of people don't know me and i don't know lots of people... that doesn't stop them from getting the skill and running for mayor... what, only people you know can run for mayor in your city?
2. I paid for and/or built the buildings you want to run. You spent 15 skill points (i.e.jack *self edit*).
again, what does the fact you paid for them have to do with it... if that was the case wouldn't the devs have made it so only the person who paid for the building or built it could be a mayor? oh, and if i did manage to live in the town I'd be paying taxes too, so guess what, I'd be paying for that building as much as you. and no offence, but 15 points is only the starting point and guess what... theres a lot of things someone can do with those 15 points somewhere else, so why you call it jack *self edit*... i call it a sizable investment in something someone would enjoy doing.
Doesn't matter. I agree with the original posters reasons. I don't know you, I paid for this stuff so stay away.
You can visit, come here to shop, use mission terminals, etc. But the city should be designed to have a decent layout without worrying about some yahoo coming in and dropping a small right in front of my city hall and blocking the main square. If ya want to join the city come hang out with us and prove that you're a RP'er and a decent soul, not some L33t d00d.
LordTigris wrote:
Marduke, you are forgetting one important issue. It's a CITY. Not a house, not a dog, not any other small thing that is owned. I own a house, I cannot own a city. I live in a city and that is the difference. I own a house that is part of a city I live in.They could not tell me that I could not build a house or buy a house andI pay maintenace in the form of taxes. I did not build any of the Civil structures (I help maintain them though), but someone did.
BZZZZT wrong answer. Every single city in the US, (ones that are incorporated) have zoning laws. These zoning laws CAN prevent you from building a house somewhere, just as it can prevent you from building an office building somewhere.
Modern cities have 'city planners' that define these zones before the city is built. You just can't walk down to main street, buy property and build **edit** you want on it. If you want to place a structure that doesn't qualify for your zone you have to go before the zoning board to ask for permission. Sounds pretty similar to me.
Fortnuatly it is NOT going to work like that. Just because someone pays for and builds the white house does not make them the king of the USA, same with player cities on SWG.
If you dont like the idea that you dont own the town you start, then dont set down a town hall.
The only thing I disagree ithe Ropock about is that I expect nearly all the towns to change hands at least once within a couple of months of being founded. I expect it to happen allthe time.
But I think that is a good thing.
When you buy ( or build ) and place a town hall, it isnt yours, it it the towns, and you dont own it anymore.
Delana, I have no problem with residential zones being established... so long as I'm allowed to build a house in one of them thats fine. If you want to ban me after I build to try to keep me out, ok, I guess you can do that. But why should I not be able to build within the residential zone of the city?
Ganking can and will happen. The biggest PA can do what they want to whomever they want. With cities, the Devs have given the ability for any large PA to kill anyone they want over and over again, regardless of faction standing.
What they need to do is let everyone that has declared residence in the 'city' at the time of creation ALWAYS have voting rights, and for anyone else, they have to wait for at least one or two elections to pass. Then, after that time, they can apply for voting rights. The mayor can give or deny these rights, and the people can love/hate him for it.
How could you balance this out? Only have voting citizens pay taxes. That way, new players to a city can get a 'free trial' of how it runs, see some elections, and decide if they want to stay. Then, if they like it, they apply for voting rights. The mayor accepts/denies this claim on whatever basis they deem. If it passes, the player is part of the city, if denied, they get to live free in a city and enjoy it's shops, parks, shuttle ports, cantinas, hopsitals, garage, bank,etc.
I think that this is the BEST way to prevent 'ganking' and to make sure everyone is happy and part of a city.
Please let me know what you think. If you like it, I'll make a thread about it and we'll get the devs to notice our fears.
The word ganking is cracking me up.
You mean like when the republicans ganked california in the re-call election? Do you mean like when the democrats ganked Goerge Bush Sr elecing Clintion into office? Or when the republicans ganked the democrats by electing Bush jr?
What do you mean by Gank?
Is Gank whenever you personally dont get what you want?
The ONLY issue I see is that a mayor may be able to deplete city funds, there are easy ways they could control that. The problem is people want to be king, bzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrong. You are elected into office, you dont get to own a city. Someone else may get elected and boot you out, and that is how it should be.