Architect Archive
Thread: Old Heavy Harvsters are worthless now!
Ropock - I agree, the price probably won't be the same as the biggerold mediums (i.e. gas ancd chem). Still, all that means, under the best circumstances,is that old heavies need to be worth a good deal less than the 50k or so that the new mediums will sell for. Call that 35k, maybe (you still save 40k running new mediums for just one month.
But remember 2 things:
1 - some new mediums will apparently be 8s. I made 7s with good resources, and no skill tapes. If they can make 8s, then old heavies drop even more from the 35k estimate I made.
2 - pyschology also kicks in. Once people have a hard time selling their old heavies, even if they are objectively worth 35k or so, the price drops still further as people panic and worry about being stuck with them.
So, in the best possible situation, with new medium minerals costing 13k resources, we still have the value ofold harvtesters drop by well over 50%, probably more like 2/3.
It is important in an MMORPG that people get to keep what they work for. IMHO it's a large part of the attaraction of these games - stand alone games just sort of end, MMORPGs you get to keep your stuff. Having the Devs wipe out half or 2/3 of the value of the most expensive harvesters in the game is a very bad idea.
Let's look at it this way every day in the real world we sell old cars for 25% or less of their org. cost (granted the car may still run and look as good is it did when it was new but is older and more likely to break down, our harversters are not going to break down any time soon unless the devs change that as well) but my main point is we sell them because we want something new and better not because we have to. If miners want new and better heavies or new and cheaper Med's to replace there old heavies that is there choice. They will lose the 75+% of value they paid for the old heavy (But wait that old heavy has earned them how much money since they bought it?? way more then they paid for it or have put into it.) point being it is the miners choice to buy new and better harverster ( no oneif forceing them to buy a new one the old ones still work the same as they did before the patch ) It is all and all the miners choice to buy or not to buy the only pearson who is looseing money is the Arch. that built heavies before the patch and had not sold them (that Arch. just lost his cost on the old heavy unless he get's lucky and finds a buyer.) We will have to live with it.
Odds are pretty good that the devs are allowing the higher extraction rates do the the fact that we are getting new content that will take more resources ( Player City's, Speeders... and yes the big one, one day far far away Starships )
We will be thankful for the higher rates one day and what have we lost the cost of an old heavy that we have more then paid for if we ran it 2 to 3 weeks.
Yes Xyber do the math.
Don't forget to add in critical fails, factory time and cost, amount of time hunting for resources and servicing harvesters, amount of time to get to master and cost, and the fact that most crafters aren't much good at hunting (no 22k missions for me) and compare all that to a combat oriented character who can drop a heavy harvester anywhere and leave it sit there indefinitely and sell whatever it happens to be sitting on on the bazaar at 3cpu.
When raw resources average, across all servers, at 3 cpu, at what point is it easier for an architect to say "screw this, I am just selling resources from now on" as opposed to taking the time, effort, and chance of material loss in making and selling structures.
Don't come to this board and whine about cost when architects are the most under compensated craft profession in the game.
Deoka wrote:
Yes Xyber do the math.
Don't forget to add in critical fails, factory time and cost, amount of time hunting for resources and servicing harvesters, amount of time to get to master and cost, and the fact that most crafters aren't much good at hunting (no 22k missions for me) and compare all that to a combat oriented character who can drop a heavy harvester anywhere and leave it sit there indefinitely and sell whatever it happens to be sitting on on the bazaar at 3cpu.
When raw resources average, across all servers, at 3 cpu, at what point is it easier for an architect to say "screw this, I am just selling resources from now on" as opposed to taking the time, effort, and chance of material loss in making and selling structures.
Don't come to this board and whine about cost when architects are the most under compensated craft profession in the game.
Raw resouces cost 1cpu inside the guild 
when your in a guild things are lot diffrent than when you do things by your self, Useing a +40 crafting station and tools that are at least 10.0 makes a big diffrence
also the as to the critical failures, if they are a big problem do this, make a very complex item by hand that takes little resouces and put all the experimentation points you can into it, then FORCE a critical failure while experimentingright before you assemble the deed by hand. other wise if your making things in bluk then you don't have criticals since factories dont fail. heck investing all your experiementation points at one time and having a80% chance of failure usally either A always give me a critical and B give me something that is really really good but cant be remade.
BTW i already did the math counting factory time, cost per resouces and how much energy the factory takes along with alot of other factors, on critical failures, you can not possibly be failing as much as you claim to be. else you need to contact a driod engi and get some storage compartments in your crafting station.
try using a crafting tool that has a rating over 0, no offense but im a bio engineer and i see far more criticals that a architech ever could.
hehe not anymore in retail.
Griswel wrote:
OK, now I am beginning to better understand why McDonalds couldn't sell 1/3 pound hamburgers in their test markets(people refused to buy them because they wanted the quarterpounders, thinking that the quarterpounders were bigger).
"In any case, as someone else pointed out, trying to compare old heavies and new mediums is not what anyone should be doing. You need to compare NEW heavies with new mediums, in which case the new heavies still have value."
Umm, so you defeat the comparison of new mediums with old heavies by declaring that I'm not allowed to do it? Yes, everyone who buys a new medium has an option to buy a new heavy. Yes, new heavies are better than new mediums. The point of the post, I hiope I have your permission to make it, is that old heavies are virtually worthless. If I write a post saying that new heavies are virtually worthless I'll be sure to paste your comments in. Thanks. That was very helpful.
However, everyone who owns old heavies makes a choice, whether they want to or not ("if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"). They can run their old heavies, or buy new mediums. The fact that the new mediums get the same benefit for less cost remains true even if new heavies are arguably better.
If you can accomplish the same thing with two different devices, then deciding what to do must be a comparison of those devices (even if you also compare other things).
Apparently the Devs went to the same school of economics that you guys went to. They might as well start writing their "We had no idea people would be so upset over this change" post now, because as much as people do not understand simple math, markets really do work.Pretty soon the old heavies that fetched 80k last week will be worth less than 10k in a matter of days once this change is seen as permanent, if it becomes permanent. People won't understand why, but theydo understand the difference between 10k and 80k.
Hey, I have it! You people can buy up all the old heavies! Send me a /tell once we know that newmediums will stay at 7/min, you can buy all of mine for 80k a pop.
Actually the idea that the new med harvesters (or new large) are costing the owners ofold structures is a better example of the McDonalds analogy and of bad economic reasoning. Let's pretend your mining operation is a lawn mowing business and your harvester is a lawn mower. For simplicity sake we'll say the cost of the mower is your only operating cost. Well pretend you can mow ten lawns a day for 10 bucks a lawn. We'll pretend the mower cost you 500 bucks. After 5 days your mower has paid for itself. You could outright blow it up or throw it in a river or sell it for 50 cents and you have not lost a penny. Granted if you did that you would not gain anything either. Realistically you'd keep it till it was broken or until you really saw something you'd rather use. Lets say you found a new mower that would allow you to mow 13 lawns a day and it cost 700 bucks. You could keep using the old mower and still make good profit, it has paid for itself after all. But you mostly likely realize the potential of improved profits for the new mower. As long as the old mower has reached the paid for itself point you lose nothing getting a new one even if you never sell the old one.
The same thing happens in the game. After a period of days (the number varies by how well you place your harvesters and your selling prices for resources) the harvester has paid for itself. After that amount of days you can sell the harvester for 1 cr and still not lose anything. You can continue using the harvester after that point and profit nicely. Or, you can choose to buy new harvesters, lose nothing and gain potential higher profits.
Roadie -It is true that harvesters will all pay for themselves if you sell resources, and pretty quickly at that.
That does not mean that it is a good idea for the Devs to render hundreds of millions of credits worth of harvesters virtually worthless, which will happen if Medium minerals (cost - 3500 resources) operate at the same rate, and much cheaper, than old heavy harvesters (cost 25k resources or so).
What I mean is: players know that they still own the old heavy, so no matter how much sense it would make to have them say "I still made tons of money off this thing" it will still piss people off no end to have what they paid 80k for last week be worth 5k today.
But...it looks like you guys have to see it in action first.
It's called new technology replacing old. People will either buy new harvesters or they'll use old ones. But most will replace their fleet with the new model.
And again, so what? They're not going to complain. They know they are upgrading, that's the whole point. Out with the old, in with the new. It's all part of technology. Live in the now. Make better harvesters and cut your losses with the old and get on with your business.
As far as the current system on live servers, that's going to change. Experimented heavies will be scaled with the mediums. Don't worry about that. There will be a market for all types, as per usual.
What about the fact that in order to make a 7 extraction rate medium, it takes premium resources, not the junk that can make a current heavy?
Surefoot-SOK wrote:
I don't see what the isssue is. It's like someone saying first generation CDEF pistols are worthless. So what? You won't see weaponsmiths complaining when a better weapon comes out.
It's called new technology replacing old. People will either buy new harvesters or they'll use old ones. But most will replace their fleet with the new model.
And again, so what? They're not going to complain. They know they are upgrading, that's the whole point. Out with the old, in with the new. It's all part of technology. Live in the now. Make better harvesters and cut your losses with the old and get on with your business.
As far as the current system on live servers, that's going to change. Experimented heavies will be scaled with the mediums. Don't worry about that. There will be a market for all types, as per usual.
First generation CDEF's don't cost 150k. They also were obsolete from the get go because we knew that there would be better weapons in the future. Remember, we were informed that extraction rates were going to remain unchanged, and then all of a sudden they all changed without notice to anyone in any fashion.