Architect Archive
Thread: #1 Architect Problem
first of all, there shouldnt be people running 10 large harvesters - maybe large harvesters should take up 2 spots instead of one - they could add another profession called master surveyor or something who would have resource gathering advatages
make a special profession out of collecting resources, who then sell them on the market. others could still get some resources, but not enough to be solo operations
the way its working now, resources are SO easy to gather its going to ruin crafting
killbuckner wrote:
So many of you are missing the point. Architects are the only people in the game who can BUILD medium harvesters. That means, when people need medium harvesters by definition they will be MUCH cheaper for Architects than they will be for anyone else. If YOUR costs rise because you need to occasionally replace your machinery, that means that everyone elses costs will rise MUCH more because they need to pay you a markup just to catch up to you. You don't need the ability for your one medium harvester to last forever because you have the ability to replace it at minimal cost compared to everyone else in the game. I can't beleive how short sighted some people are. If you have to replace a heavy extractor once a month, yes your cost per unit will go up- but it won't go up as much as someone who has to buy a heavy extractor from you once a month. You are worried about your costs going up as if they would be going up in a vacuum where everyone elses costs stay the same. Thats just not the case. If everyone had to replace their equipment on occasion, not only would there be a demand for high quality structures, but YOU would havea HUGE advantage over everyone else in the game. Letting you builda heavy harvester one time and having it last forever while everyone else needs to buy one every month is rediculous. Understand that anytime you and a competetor need a new building to do the same thing, you are at a huge advantage even without special skills.
No sir, au contraire, it is *YOU* who is being shortsighted and completely missing the point! You're right, Architects are the only people in the game who can build medium harvesters. So what? CH's are the only people in the game who can tame a rancor.DE's are the only people in the game who can make probots and advanced probots (even though they're being termporarily nerfed until a cert system is put in place). Scouts are the only people in the game who have at least a relatively decent chance of tiptoing through the wilds of Dantooine for an hour without suffering instant death. Doctors are the only people in the game that can revive fallen players on the field of battle. I could go on. All these people have a "HUGE advantage" over me because they have skills and abilities to do things I don't. And you know what? You don't see *ME* sitting here whining and crying at the top of my lungs that it's unfair that I can't do those things, because I'm not *supposed* to! If I wanted to do those things, I could somehow give up enough skill points and go into one of those professions and be able to do all those neat things. The same would be true under this hypothetical scenario of harvester deterioration....Architects naturally would have the skill to be able to deconstruct and rebuild the things they build in the first place without any penalty. Why? Because it's a natural function of their skillset. It's a part of what they would be able to do and what defines them as a profession, just like CH's taming rancors and the like. It is **NOT** an unfair advantage. And again, I'll take you back to a reply to one of your posts this morning: you seem so focused on "everyone else in the game" thinking they're at a disadvantage; I beg to differ. "Everyone else in the game" has the *advantage* in *NOT* having to maintain a horde of ore harvesters not just financially but in terms of time and legwork involved, of *NOT* having to scour the entire planet's surface and in many cases that of several planets trying to find the best ore richness concentration they can whenever resources shift, in *NOT* having to move that horde of ore harvesters to the new location when found, etc.And before you try and compare to other crafting professions, don't even bother....there isn't another one out there that comes even close to the sheer amount of volume of resources an architect has to produce and run through a day to produce medium to large sized structures and installations.
You bring up 'cost'?!? Cost isn't the issue....*resources* is the issue. You act like resources just grow on trees and we just have the unfair ability to chew through them like candy as we see fit to produce these things like nobody's business. If such a thing as harvester degredation were to affect architects just the same, you'd basically bring even the most average of architects who only uses his own personal lot allowance and nothing else to his knees for at least 2-3 days minimum while he scrounges up all the resources just to replace his equipment and recraft everything new. Which means both time and resources wasted on the architects themselves that would be much better served in keeping their customers who are having to unhappily deal with this new problem you've introduced as happy and content as possible by keeping them supplied in new harvesters as well. And while we're on the subject of average architects, those that don't have the backing or support financially or otherwise of a mega PA to keep them going, you're effectively crippling those guys, because they aren't going to be getting a huge volume of resource per day to work with to begin with! And in your grand brilliant scheme, since they're affected by degradation too before their harvesters have to be replaced, do you think it actually *helps* the architect to get less and less resources until they even *get* to the point where the harvesters would have to be replaced?! Good grief man, you've got to be out of your gourd to be saying the things you are. Not everyone is all about costs and the bottom line of how much money we make....SOME of us actually CARE about the work we do and how something like this affects our customers. SOME of us actually try to be fair and reasonable with our customers and as customer-relations friendly as possible. I'd love to test your warped theory out in reality on just one server and let you see how totally 'borked' your idea would actually be in practice, when Mr. Architect has to tell potential customers at regular intervals "I'm sorry, I won't be able to build you anything for several days because I'm having to build all new harvesters and equipment and it'll take me several days to even come up with all the resources I need". Oh wait, did you mean perhaps that we should save up the resources and prepare for this inevitable event in advance? Fine...then it becomes, "I'm sorry, I won't be able to build you anything for several days. I can only produce maybe one house a day if I'm lucky because I have to save 40% of the meager amount of resources I'm able to produce less of a day for every 5-8days that pass in order to make all new harvesters because my architect character is too stupid to know how to be able to deconstruct and move my existing harvesters even though he constructed them from scratch to begin with.".....Okayyyy, everyone, Mr. Rodgers time here. Today's word for the day is "DUH?"....can you say that boys and girls? I knew that you could! 
No offense, but get a clue. Enough with the "you would have a HUGE advantage" crying and bellyaching. Architects have no more and in that scenario would *STILL* have no more of an advantage than anyone else in this game does given their respective and unique skills and abilities that architects in turn also wouldn'thave. You say "Understand that anytime you and a competetor need a new building to do the same thing, you are at a huge advantage even without special skills." Give me a flipping break. Tell me, who does an architect compete against?! Could it be.....other architects?! *GASP* =O Say it isn't so! And could it be that other architects would have the same ability and skill to be able to do the same thing? NO! Get outta here! That can't be right! Obviously *you* need some understanding here, because what you're suggesting is straight out of the Twilight Zone.
nethervoidartisan wrote:
TalonKarrdeTN , you don't think the market is going to become saturated? It surely will, and then there won't be a tenth of the need for architects. Eventually everyone will be limited to one house per player, just like in UO. Items will be restricted. Hell, even harvester quantity per person may become restricted to save some markets. I think the speeds at which people can craft items are FAR faster than items decay. That is going to ruin the market for sure.
You're not understanding the debate that killbuckner and I are having. I'm not arguing against the idea of installations and structures degrading, assuming the devs would be able to figure out a way to pull it off given that people already pay maintenance fees to, from their perspective, keep degradation from happening in the first place.If there's a way to do it anddo it right, I am *all* for it 100%. I'm arguing *solely* against the idea that he's propogating that architects....the very people who build these things in the first place....should be affected by such a system just like everyone else should. That an architect, who makes a fusion generator for example from scratch, wouldn't have the skill or ability to deconstruct and move that harvester him or herself without it suffering the degradation penalties that people *WITHOUT* architectural skills would have to deal with. That, simply, is all I'm trying to say. What he's suggesting is aboslutely and totally ludicrious and would, if the issue was forced, drive a majority of people playing as architects away from it, myself included. He's trying to argue a mythical 'advantage' where there is none beyond the natural advantages and abilities that you logically would gain by learning the profession to begin with. I have no qualm with the global idea of somehow making architectural goods decay in some way to keep the profession viable if the devs could do it properly.....but what he's suggesting is akin to,for example, makingelves in a fantasy RPG being able to write anything they want down in elvish that only they could understand, but then not being able to comprehend or translate what they just wrote. Understand what I'm getting at now?
Wow... your ignorance is so astounding on so many levels its hard to know where to begin...
Lets be perfectly clear on what we are talking about here. We are talking about the relative costs for architects to harvest resources vs the costs on non-architects when harvesting minerals. THATS IT. For some reason, YOU think that because you are an architect that you should be able to harvest minerals with no overhead at all. I understand why someonelike you would WANT that ability, but its just stupid from a game standpoint. Like I said before, what you want would be likea weaponsmith making ears down for everyone else in the game, but if he wears it it never degrades EVER. Thats what you are asking for.
Here is the crux of the issue. You not only wantarchitects to be the only class able to build harvestors, youalso want to make architects tohave some sort of super resource gathering abilities. I realize you think that this is necessary because fo the large number of resources you need, but from a game standpoint its just not the case. You should have the same ability to gather resources as every other guy in the game. Your only advantage should be that you can make the equipment forfar less than anyone elsein the game canbuy it for. That should be the only advantage (and if you were smart, you would realize this would mean that the more equipment turns over the more of an advantage you would have). Any otherguy who wants to go scout out a location, scour for the best resources and put up a "horde ofharvesters" shouldbe on a level playing field with any architect in the game if they are using the sameequipment. ARCHITECTS WERE NOT DESIGNED TO HAVE RESOURCE GATHERING ADVANTAGES OVER OTHER CLASSES. Architects can probably afford to get new equipment faster, but as long as the equipment is the same neither guy should be at a loss. Maybe someday you will understand the point that if you make people buy equipment while you can make equipment it would be a big advantage.
COST is always the issue. Every single decision in this game comes down to cost. You just don't undestand what cost means. The WHOLE POINT of this conversation is cost per unit of resource for architects vs non-architects. You don't even understand what we are talking about. I'll try and put this in terms that you can understand. Lets say that you have 8 medium extractors and 2 solar reactors. So does Joe. Joe is not an architect. Every month you have tosave ~ 40k of resources to replace all your equipment. You should be able to get around 4k of resources out of each of your extractors every 24 hours. Thatsa little over one days worth of resources a month to completely replace all your equipment. And thats assuming that you only are getting 4k of resources out of a medium extractor every 24 hours. If Joe wants to replace all his resources, he will have to pay in excess of 200k credits (20 k for medium extractors and solar collectors is approx the going rate right?) You don't see that as abig enoughadvantage? You think that while Joe is paying the 200k in credits a month to replace all of his equipment, you should have NO overhead? That you should pay NOTHING?! Architects have the ability to make structures. Thats what makes us architects. Architects should not be made into the defato class you have to be if you want a fair chance to collect resources. The only advantage architects should have is the ability to create structures for the cost of resources.
Once again this come back to costs. Why don't you tell us all how much you think that you are paying per unit of resources since you think you understand the problem so well. If you knew how little you were actually paying for resources you harvest I don't think you would be protesting so much about this.
It seems like the issue here is over the cost to construct a building vs the profit andactual sale. This is what I classify as a "Pricing Issue". Pricing Issues are not something I am going to address. Why? Because all of this is based off of Player Worth. The Devs don't force people to sell at 6CPU or force you to buy resources. It is all depandant on players. Prices are self-regulating, if the Devs attempt to regulate the market and force people to sell at certain prices, then it won't be a player run economy.
Mitsudo - Ahazi
Takenoko - SWGCraft.com
agree...
it is a player driven economy... main problem is crafter are willing to sell their stuff cheaply while they earn XP. a trend I'm seeing is that Master of any profession charge a higher price then the none master.... understandable in profession like wepsmith where there's a clear quality difference, but its being seen in Architect too where 1 building by a master arch is just the same as the one built by a fresh novice....
Only thing that quality MAY matter is in experimented crafting station. but the jury is still out as to whatever the experiemented station with optional component do indeed can be scientificly proven to reduce crit fail rate
Toward the end of beta and I hit master arch. I made more/faster/less hasslemoney selling resources from my harvster than selling houses(cut throat competiton and below resources market price) or even PA hall(pain in the ass to build especially the **edit** factory eating power cores)
I don't want to set a price on anything. I want there to be detoriation of the product so we have repeat business just like every profession.
If homes werepermanent -
when you put it down, it stays down.
/salvage command for an Arch. Someone wants to move their home, an arch can come out and /salvage the house to try and get back components used in the construction. Higher level Archs can salvage more components and fewer components are damaged in the process with the level of the Arch.
You keep up on your maint, the house doesn't deteriorate, you don't pay, it crumbles quickly. When it gets to expense to pay the maint to get the house up to a good condition, the Arch can come along with
/repair command and utilize resources in his inventory to patch the house back to good shape.
This opens up two service industries for the Archs. They can salvage components from an existing structure to help offset the rebuild cost for the new deed in order to be moved. They can also repair ( harvesters, homes, factories ) by utilizing resources they have in their possesion to bring the house back up to snuff.
The quality of the house can dictate how fast it decays.
Anchmed