Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
/agree.
Consider it this way. A lot of armorsmiths/weaponsmiths put in orders with people like I'Thoth. Iaan (a friend and guildmate of mine) is another such person, though he runs more mobile harvesters, renting lots from guildmates ona weekly basis....that's irrelevant, though, as these changes would make his life a lot more difficult as well. Anyway, many armorsmiths/weaponsmiths put in orders with such people, or have similar medium to large scale mining operations of their own to supply them with. This sort of easy, bulk availability means two things - first, that they can produce a much larger number of goods, and two, they can sell these goods at lower prices. Take that ability away, and it will be at the very least much more difficult to produce goods on a massive scale, which will cause a price increase as well.
Also, explain to me how cross-server lot trades are an "abuse" of game mechanics. SOE allows them, don't they?
Furthermore, making harvesters require CERTIFICATIONS is rediculous and stupid. There's no good reason for it and nothing about how they work gives a reason, too.
Ok .. My turn to make a comment here..
First off.. Are cross server lot trades Illegal.. atm no.. because it is really hard to prove if a toon on a server is a legit played toon.. ( heck I have a toon on ahazi that I log on and tool around on maybe 20-30 minutes a month with)
Were Using Cross server lot trades for mining opperations Intended.... NO.. not at all... Can they stop you .. not 100% but they can make it very difficult.. If Admin rights were only for hopper that means that your cross server Mule would Have to log on Every Shift to change the resource and turn the Harves back on.. as well as adding the power and maint..
Are you an evil person for doing this.. Not at all.. It takes Alot of Organization to run one of these farms effeicently.. But The big Question is.. are these GOOD FOR THE GAME... the answer Is not at all..
What alot of people are not looking at .. Is .. The whole purpose of admin was kinda two things.. One If for some reason you had to leave the game someone else could take care of the structure for you .. so you didnt loose it.. etc. and Two.. So people can work / play together for a common goal.. ( for example in game married peeps can share a house.. a guild can share a PA hall... etc)
As far as InterServer Lot renting.. I believe it is within the intentions of the system for say a dancer to dontate their lots to a miner.. However If you notice SOE has always had a push for players to be reliant on other players.. So the idea was that that entertainer would take part in the whole mining process.. via ... meeting up with the miner at the resource waypoint and placing Harves.. and actually taking part in the process.. I dont think it is in the intentions of the system for someone to drop a harv and forget about them..
Static Farms are not bad.. But they should involve everybody in running them.. Sure one person can manage them.. send emails to owners when resource shifts / let them know what new resource to get .... that is doing the greater good getting the players involved in the whole process.. I personally would prefer if they are going to limit admin that they allow admin to have hopper access and be able to addpower and maint..
Final Note..... Once again.. I dont think anyone involved in these static farms are evil.. heck I commend many of you on the organization it requires to keep them going.. But.. bottom line.. you have to ask Is it best for the game..?
Anyone who says that Lot swapping isa bad thingmay want to take a step back and think about what they're saying.
For example:-
- Take away lot trades and guaranteed your favourite resource vendor goes bust or at very best he's severely limited as to what he can provide.
- The economy on your server goes up by astronomic proportions, it takes nearly 10k of resources to make a swoop bike, if an Artisan can only harvest 30-50k a day then he'll be damned if he's gonna sell his bikes for the usual price (god only knows it's high enough on Bria as it is).
- There will be less of the things you take for granted, less harvesters for sale for example (anyone know how much resources go into these things? Check it out, you'll soon see why Architects would get very rare very quickly).
- Not as many readily available doctors/chefs/bio engineers as they're all out of stock as they don't have the capability to produce items en masse. (Sort of ties in with the previous statement but it's worse as not everybody wants Architect items, most people want buffs, food and a good non-ch pet)
- And even worse it practically forces any toon to have some form of combat ability. Why?? Because you try placing that harv on Dath without some kind of protection, better yet, you try retrieving the resources from it.
Please discuss and or flame but please note, i've not flamed anyone else, i've made valid points for not nerfing Lot Swap/Trades.
The problem with this potential nerf is that they NEVER FIX the things that would make it easier to do this with ingame intentions.
Lot rentals should be able to be donated or rented from other people so you do not have to make people run to the lots you lay down on dathomir. Why should one lot renter have an advantage because they get a TKM's lot, but another can only come up with a musician's lots, who is unable to safely survive planting them in the first place?
As par, and I sadly sadly predict, this nerf will be placed in effect with the most minimal attention paid to any of the ramifications of the process. It has taken me over 6 months to get five AS's into our town that produce enough to ALMOST support the populace. When those AS's cannot get cheap materials anymore, and they quit (as is the norm) or pass along the cost and suits of armor shoot up to 2 mill per tell me about fariness then. Also, if they apply this to factories people are gonna really see the economy tank.
Fivo Asia
Byallbacca wrote:
Anyone who says that Lot swapping isa bad thingmay want to take a step back and think about what they're saying.
For example:-
- Take away lot trades and guaranteed your favourite resource vendor goes bust or at very best he's severely limited as to what he can provide.
- The economy on your server goes up by astronomic proportions, it takes nearly 10k of resources to make a swoop bike, if an Artisan can only harvest 30-50k a day then he'll be damned if he's gonna sell his bikes for the usual price (god only knows it's high enough on Bria as it is).
- There will be less of the things you take for granted, less harvesters for sale for example (anyone know how much resources go into these things? Check it out, you'll soon see why Architects would get very rare very quickly).
- Not as many readily available doctors/chefs/bio engineers as they're all out of stock as they don't have the capability to produce items en masse. (Sort of ties in with the previous statement but it's worse as not everybody wants Architect items, most people want buffs, food and a good non-ch pet)
- And even worse it practically forces any toon to have some form of combat ability. Why?? Because you try placing that harv on Dath without some kind of protection, better yet, you try retrieving the resources from it.
Please discuss and or flame but please note, i've not flamed anyone else, i've made valid points for not nerfing Lot Swap/Trades.
Yes I understand all this, and you post is very well written and a good warning. But I tend to think we overdramatize this. I know that with 8 or so mineral harvs i could bring in a good amount of resources. Just not the masses we deal with now. I think crafting should be more limited as it stands normal products are basically valueless because they sell barely over what raw resources would sell for. I just think we need to put the economy in check and the pains we go through to get there would be worth it in the end.
I did read your post, and I wasn't trying to specificallysingle you out (I was using the word 'you' in a general sense). But the questions I posed still haven't been answered, namely what is so bad about lot-swapping? Which other MMORPG's have been ruined by this type of activity? As far as I know, SWG is the only MMORPG that has anything like mass resource harvesting. Maybe SOE never intended cross-server lot swapping, but they have encouraged it in the past. Remember the Christmas holocrons? SOE basically told everyone to go out and make toons on other servers for holo-trading. And how is it shady to use the system in an unintended way? It is in the very nature of these games, indeed stretching back to the days of PnP role-playing games, for players to do things that were within the rules but never intended by the developers, mainly because the developers can't possibly imagine what every player will do. Players will alwaysdo somethingthat was never the Dev's intent, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing (unless of course a player is actively exploiting a bug).
FreeEnterprise wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
I'm not clear: why is cross-server lot swapping wrong? And how is it an abuse of the game mechanics? It's not exploiting or cheating. It doesn't hurt you (or at least, you haven't explained how it hurts you). How is it any different from renting or borrowinglots from other people on the server?
I don't use cross-server lots, mainly because it sounds like a tremendous hassle, and I generally only trust people I know. But I don't have a problem with other people doing it, if they so choose.
I've noticed a tendency, across all professions (and generally mirrored in real life as well), for people to complain when others are doing better then they are. Instead of creditingother's success to hard work, it's attributed instead to cheating/exploiting and a call goes out for the Devs to "do something!". I've seen in it in calls to stop cross-server lot trading; I've seen it in calls to cerftify harvestors; I've seen it in calls to restrict buffing to Master Doctors only; and in many other ways. Unless someone is using a real exploit, instead of worrying about what others are doing, just worry about what you are doing. Their success takes nothing away from you.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
If you had read my post you would see that this has nothing to do with anyone doing better than me, I do lot swap, I have about 100 harvs down, i get as many minerals as anyone could ever use. I have also seen this type of activity ruin other mmorpg's, I really doubt sony intended servers to be inhabited by thousands of accounts that are never used and are only there for the prupose of giving their lots to another player, and in my opinion anything that is using the system in a way that is unintended is shady at best.
EdOWar wrote:
I did read your post, and I wasn't trying to specificallysingle you out (I was using the word 'you' in a general sense). But the questions I posed still haven't been answered, namely what is so bad about lot-swapping? Which other MMORPG's have been ruined by this type of activity? As far as I know, SWG is the only MMORPG that has anything like mass resource harvesting. Maybe SOE never intended cross-server lot swapping, but they have encouraged it in the past. Remember the Christmas holocrons? SOE basically told everyone to go out and make toons on other servers for holo-trading. And how is it shady to use the system in an unintended way? It is in the very nature of these games, indeed stretching back to the days of PnP role-playing games, for players to do things that were within the rules but never intended by the developers, mainly because the developers can't possibly imagine what every player will do. Players will alwaysdo somethingthat was never the Dev's intent, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing (unless of course a player is actively exploiting a bug).
FreeEnterprise wrote:
EdOWar wrote:
I'm not clear: why is cross-server lot swapping wrong? And how is it an abuse of the game mechanics? It's not exploiting or cheating. It doesn't hurt you (or at least, you haven't explained how it hurts you). How is it any different from renting or borrowinglots from other people on the server?
I don't use cross-server lots, mainly because it sounds like a tremendous hassle, and I generally only trust people I know. But I don't have a problem with other people doing it, if they so choose.
I've noticed a tendency, across all professions (and generally mirrored in real life as well), for people to complain when others are doing better then they are. Instead of creditingother's success to hard work, it's attributed instead to cheating/exploiting and a call goes out for the Devs to "do something!". I've seen in it in calls to stop cross-server lot trading; I've seen it in calls to cerftify harvestors; I've seen it in calls to restrict buffing to Master Doctors only; and in many other ways. Unless someone is using a real exploit, instead of worrying about what others are doing, just worry about what you are doing. Their success takes nothing away from you.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
If you had read my post you would see that this has nothing to do with anyone doing better than me, I do lot swap, I have about 100 harvs down, i get as many minerals as anyone could ever use. I have also seen this type of activity ruin other mmorpg's, I really doubt sony intended servers to be inhabited by thousands of accounts that are never used and are only there for the prupose of giving their lots to another player, and in my opinion anything that is using the system in a way that is unintended is shady at best.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Cafa wrote:
The problem with this potential nerf is that they NEVER FIX the things that would make it easier to do this with ingame intentions.
Lot rentals should be able to be donated or rented from other people so you do not have to make people run to the lots you lay down on dathomir. Why should one lot renter have an advantage because they get a TKM's lot, but another can only come up with a musician's lots, who is unable to safely survive planting them in the first place?
As par, and I sadly sadly predict, this nerf will be placed in effect with the most minimal attention paid to any of the ramifications of the process. It has taken me over 6 months to get five AS's into our town that produce enough to ALMOST support the populace. When those AS's cannot get cheap materials anymore, and they quit (as is the norm) or pass along the cost and suits of armor shoot up to 2 mill per tell me about fariness then. Also, if they apply this to factories people are gonna really see the economy tank.
Fivo Asia
But the problem is.. it is not in the intentions to just drop lots and be done with it.. the intentions are to actually Hire miners.. actually create true partnerships.. that is the intentions.. So you have to hire a tkm babysitter for the master dancer.. ( you will actually recoup your costs moving your harves from the 44% vein that is under the static farm.. to the 80% vein )
And.. ( this is very important for everyone to understand) Higher Prices are not bad... It is entirely WAY TOO EASY to get the best of the best that a crafter can make right now in the game.. Working for the best "stuff" should be difficult to obtain... it makes it more rewarding once you can reach that level.. .. Alot of people lace their arguements that there is no way a noob can do this or do that.. you know what.. there is no way they should... they should have to work at it and build to that level ...
And Cafa this is not against you at all.. I dont think you have done anything wrong.. but you have to admit .. the ease at which the market can be flooded with resources is not good....
Well, someone could make new characters over and over and give the starting cash to another...but it would take so much time to do that one could better spend the time running missions and earn even more money. You may feelthe lot swapping ispersonally wrong, but that's just your opinion (just like it's my opinion that it isn't wrong). I guess what matters in the end is what the devs think, and if they decide server lot swapping is bad, then they will do something about it no matter what any of us think.
As for the post about the Christmas holo-trading, yeah likeanyone wouldever be able to find the postsix months after the fact. As I recall it, it wasn't an open endorsement of holo-trading, but it basically amounted to a wink and a nod on the practice. The Devs and CSRs knew it was happening, knew weeks in advance of the Christmas holos being given out (as evidenced by all the annoying holo-trade posts in the trade forums leading up to Christmas--you'd have to be blind not to see them), and they didn't do anything to stop it. If they didn't want anyone to trade Christmas holos, they could have done something about it (like only giving the holo to the first toon made on each account, for example).
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Message Edited by EdOWar on 06-09-2004 11:27 AM
Dvnce wrote:
And Cafa this is not against you at all.. I dont think you have done anything wrong.. but you have to admit .. the ease at which the market can be flooded with resources is not good....
Cafa wrote:
Can you honestly see any of those people, or even me, worried about cross lots being pulled hurting us personally?
This "solution" does nothing more than create more of a time sink for me. If you haven't figured it out yet, nothing in this world, save your family, is more valuable thantime.
Fivo Asia
Dvnce wrote:
Cafa wrote:
Can you honestly see any of those people, or even me, worried about cross lots being pulled hurting us personally?
This "solution" does nothing more than create more of a time sink for me. If you haven't figured it out yet, nothing in this world, save your family, is more valuable thantime.
Fivo Asia
Yeah ,,, there will be small pockets of people that can do just what you are saying.. But you would not have to go to the extreme of getting more accounts.. You could just pay the members of your guild to come and do their part in the process.. and Pass that added expense on the the customers.. Over all the resource Flood will be lowered.. Crafters will have to make a choice on what they go after and what they can offer to their customers.. people will have to actually diversify... Is that so bad>?
Again Everyone needs to understand Raising Prices is not always bad.. Especially when we are talking about Monopoly money.. ...
Message Edited by Cafa on 06-09-2004 12:01 PM