Architect Archive
Thread: Architectual Item Pricing
Pawlin
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:38 pm
#27
Stownhart wrote:
OK, let's do some more math;
A master doctor buffs some one for around 2400/6stats for 3 hours. From what I have seen most Docs charge btween 10K and 20K...so lets say 15K average. That buffed (most likely TKM) character then goes out on missions that net him 10K to 25K per...again avarage of 17.5K. Including Soloing these, travel time, terminal access time, and if he/she has no medic abilities a bit of Med Center time, I have seen TKM's that wing these mission about once per 5 minutes. Now over 3 hours...12 missions per hour...total 36 missions at 17.5K income, that is 630,000 income...minus buff - 615K profit in ONLY 3 hours!So by your math standards then a Doc should be charging roughly232,500 per buff. I will remember that next time I am playing a Doc and you need a buff.
You just proved why prices should not be lowered.
Money is too easy to come by. Per your argument above.
MorrowMoondancer
Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:22 pm
#28
One of the best threads I've seen in well over a year of this game. Thank you to all of you for appealing to why I play this game.
For the record--42 year old executive for a very well known company.
As currently structured, anyone who pays attention can buydeeds once andhis/her investment never requires re-capitalization. Providing them is an unsustainable industry, absent a steady inflow of new customers--i.e. new toons on whatever server your architect lives. Stown, your pricing model also completely ignores the fundamental cost factor--the architect's time. In any job, you receive recompense in many forms--a paycheck, medical benefits, "pride in one's work," as you point out, the pleasure of working with people you like or who challenge you intellectually, a more comprehensive resume--you can add to the list if you like. In return, you're asked to invest your intellect, your sweat, your passion (sometimes)--and ALWAYS, your time. All of us constantly have a background process running that compares what we get to what we give, and when the outflow exceeeds the inflow for any sustained period of time, we 1) become bitter; or 2) polish up that resume and start hunting for a different crappy job.
Given this is a game, the time will always be the most important factor, by orders of magnitude. Discount it at your peril. On a moral level, please consider the concept of whether access to 100 lots represents anti-competitive tactics and whether predatory pricing that ignores the value others place on their time corresponds to real world sweat shops.
And then, if you want to charge a third the going rate for harvestors, go right ahead! Pity we don't have the GCW equivalent of the trade federation conflicts...
Morrow
bluejanus
Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:10 pm
#29
Stownhart wrote:I have been playing this game for 7 to 8 months now. And I have never understood the extreme over-pricing that goes on. However I think I have it figured out now. See I am 38 years old and have had plenty of real life experience to learn the value of a dollar. Appearantly the vast majority of SWG players are children, and have not had a chance to learn such. So now coming from a very experienced capenter in real life, here is a more down to earth pricing plan. BTW, you can always find my wares sold at these prices...I am BlackStarr on the Corbantis server, my shop is in the Western Dune Sea of Tatooine titled StarrMart.First let's tackle resource pricing. When I had an offer posted on my vendor for Fiberplast, I literly laid my head down on my desk laughing. Some one had offered 500 units of Fiberplast for 15,000 credits. That is roughly 27CPU. I sent the seller an email right after declining the offer. I asked him what types of drugs he was doing. Recently I set 14 Fusion Reactors on a 94% location. They were harvesting roughly 280,000 units a day. Maintainance was costly me roughly a total of 16,700 credits. So I was getting 16 units per credit of cost. In real life business, doubling your investment in product price is concidered quite lucrative. So a reasonable price for this reactive energy would be 8UPC (note NOT 8CPU). Now of course that was a 94% area of concentration. So let's average it and say half everything to accomidate a 50% concentration average and a reasonable price would still only be 4UPC. Why in the world would I pay the prices I have seen all the way up to a rediculous 50CPU when it cost so little to harvest it myself? There is another factor of course, and that is the high demand/rare resources that some crafting classes need. For example a Doctor/Medic requires specificall Dolovit Iron to make Advanced Solid Delivery Shells. And from what I have noticed Dolovite doesn't spawn very often. However even quadrupling the above noted pricing would only result in an even 1CPU.Now on to crafted products. It seems that most crafters determine their pricing by how much resources it requires to make an item. Well this is why I tackled resource pricing first. Resources are cheap and easy to come by. So this should have very little influence on product pricing. Rather the skill level needed to make the item should be the predominent influence. In my line of work you pay an employee according to their skill and experience. A lead carpenter should make much more than a laborer even though they may both utilize the same amount of lumber in a day. However there are exceptions where the resource count needed should influence price. It's just shouldn't be the main factor invloved. For instance, all vehicles are able to be made at one particular skill level: Master Artisan. However Speederbike require more to make than X34's, and Swoops more than Speederbikes. So They should range in price accordingly. And of course item quality should play a roll also. Stimpacks made with the advanced components should cost more than ones made with standard components.As an example of REALISTIC pricing here is a short pricing list of my most common wares; (edited out)
I've got news for you, real life pricing is a rip off if you consider the cost of resources and manufacturing. Considering your skillset, I'm pretty sure you don't just make a bare profit with your real life customers. Most professionals in real life make far more than they are worth and that their products are worth. But people in life can't wait forever for the cheapest best. There's opportunity and time costs in real life as well.
The associated costs between raw resources and manufactured product are mostly skipped in this game. Instead we have lot control, limited resource spawns, limited schematic runs, direct cash and power requirements (as opposed to credit and investing), unusual opportunity cost, oodles of idle time and a really horrible and low tech sales mechanism. Trying to co-relate unrelated economic systems like a game economy compared to real life carpentry is a mistake. The dynamics are completely not the same. The basic concept of supply and demand works differently in here, especially without tariffs, taxes or price controls. We don't have to deal with unions or regulatory agencies.
How can you even think that real life should some how dictate a game economy when the rules are so different. I like to think my time is worth something, I charge what I feel comfortable with and what my local server can support.
Your last line is telling. "Well I hope this pricing info brings a few people back into reality." Reality, eh? As others have said. This isn't reality, this is a game. Stop recreating your job in the game. The "value of a dollar"? We don't have a physical currency, the sweat to get money in this game and the cost of spending it is very low. If you would like to think real life, we could set the value of credits at around 70,000 SWG credits to the dollar, if we tried one of the not-so legal credit sellers.
To comment on a few other people. Who cares what other people charge. There isn't undercutting in the game. The market is pretty simplistic and the advertising and sales system are very primitive. There is very little concept of value in the game. Without a good basis for value, you can't judge a fair price for anything. Stuff is generally too easy to get. How long does it take to build a house in real life? A long time, if you include the search process and the county approvals. In the game, it takes me maybe 3 minutes to make a house and you can set it down almost anywhere. The original poster's error was thinking that his real life experience meant that he could set the value of products in another economic system using the rules in real life. A multiple choice answer to a fill-in-the-blank question as it were.
Message Edited by bluejanus on 01-30-2005 02:19 PM
Message Edited by bluejanus on 01-30-2005 02:26 PM
Stownhart
Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:00 am
#30
Well as long as you insist of bogging any system down with irrelavent and superficial factors and contingiencies, the ability to make a comparison of two scenarios will always be beyond your comprehension. Until you have the capability to strip away the unneccessary guilding and get the root core of a situation, you won't be able to understand the simple and very logical comparison I am making. I see that several of you have felt the need to bash my post here. And I understand that it is standard human nature to attempt to win a debate by over-whelming the opposition with the farce of appering "highly educated". However, how about we get back to topic? This thread is about informing the buyer how they are getting ripped off. Not about the thieves trying to justify there atrocities with cotradictions...reference to getting paid for the "sweat" going into the crafting...reference to playing and having fun. What all the responses hence have only shown is that you that over price don't really have a good argument for doing so. All you have done is try to be flashy with wording to try to justify the wrong doing. There is a title for a person that does such..."Conman"
thank you very much
Lionsworth
Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:11 am
#31
Let me start of by saying that I am a prolific crafter, and one that takes great pride in both my work, and my reputation. With that said, I think there are a few points that I should raise:
1: CPU pricing of raw resources is out of control. THis is to be expected in the type of economy that the game supports. Look at the cost of Steel, it went from a range of 1-5 CPU (the highest end stuff for Armor and Weaponsmiths) to an average of 10-12CPU (at least to my experience). The only factor that changed in game? The release of JTL and the HUGE requirements of resources for Starships. (Btw, I am currently a Shipwright)
2: Advertising is next to impossible. You can Hawk at a starport, use a barker-droid, depend on word of mouth, or hope that the Planetary Map makes your shop look like the closest one. On a personal note, I tend to just /Addignore the Hawkers, and if there are too many barker-droids, I close Spatial all together. I rarely like to take the time to search all the listed venders when I am looking for one specific item, and personally do not have the skill points available to go Merchant for registering my own Venders.
It is with those two factors in mind that I gather my own resources, using spare lots from guildmates (and I have never been in a situation where a person was using ALL their lots, unless they were either a crafter themselves, OR already loaning them to one.) So do I price my Starships and components based on the Resource requirements? No! I use the overall quality of the item to determine it's value, taking into consideration the required skill level (cause let's face it, anybody CAN master a crafting profession, but most will never keep it long enough to make a difference), and the time I had to put into making it. With the ability to do factory runs of structural components, and use those components to make factory runs of finished product, the usage of ingame time for crafting versus other (Fun) actions can be rather low.
Do I allow the amount of money other professions can make influence me? Nope. If I wanted to make money, I would. For me it is about the game, and what I do in it, not generating sums of creds. So what is Doctors can make a Million faster than me? Or if a buffed TKM can rake in the cash (even with the Solo-group nerf). If all you are crafting for is to make money, then go ahead and do that. It will end up driving more customers to those of use that prefer to have lower prices, more realistic to the way we play the game. If the size of your Bank account is what you pride yourself in, then more power to you. Come and buy out my vender, resell it if you want! I made the money I wanted to. Eventually the market economy will even out, and pricing will become better in tune with reality.
Right now, there are still huge sums of cash in the game from the Solo-grouping. Until it is drained from the game the economy will support the higher prices. Once that changes, then we will see what is or is not REALISTIC. Ifeel that the lower prices will then become the norm, and those not able or willing to adapt, will go out of business. (As it happens in the real world.)
This may be a game, but we are real people playing it, and we bring the reality to the game. It happens, no avoiding it for long.
And for the record, I am no longer an Architect. (dumped it to make room for Politician, do I feel stupid?) I bought all my Cities supplies from BlackStarr, and am very pleased with his work, and his pricing. Keep up the good work!
Message Edited by Lionsworth on 01-31-2005 05:12 AM
bluejanus
Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:20 am
#32
Stownhart wrote:Well as long as you insist of bogging any system down with irrelavent and superficial factors and contingiencies, the ability to make a comparison of two scenarios will always be beyond your comprehension. Until you have the capability to strip away the unneccessary guilding and get the root core of a situation, you won't be able to understand the simple and very logical comparison I am making. I see that several of you have felt the need to bash my post here. And I understand that it is standard human nature to attempt to win a debate by over-whelming the opposition with the farce of appering "highly educated". However, how about we get back to topic? This thread is about informing the buyer how they are getting ripped off. Not about the thieves trying to justify there atrocities with cotradictions...reference to getting paid for the "sweat" going into the crafting...reference to playing and having fun. What all the responses hence have only shown is that you that over price don't really have a good argument for doing so. All you have done is try to be flashy with wording to try to justify the wrong doing. There is a title for a person that does such..."Conman"thank you very much
Well let's examine your points.
1. Your Self-Imposed Authority: "I have been playing this game for 7 to 8 months now", "See I am 38 years old and have had plenty of real life experience to learn the value of a dollar", and "very experienced capenter in real life".
From this standpoint, you insist that the other architects are thieves, conmen, and children. And that somehow, the description "farce of appering "highly educated"" somehow does not apply to you, the 38 year old carpenter. Btw, using such labels to reinforce your viewpoint is a propaganda tactic. If you insult your opponents, they must be wrong. And who are you to dictate what value and what profit should be? Really, who died and made you God? You believe whatever you want of how something should be priced, be my guest. However, you no right to tell me or anyone else that they should toe your line. Advertise that you're cheaper or better, or whatever like that. Advertise other people are thieves and criminals, well in the real world, we'd be suing you.
2. Your point: You believe that the simple costs associated with constructing architect products ethically only allow a certain amount of profit and people who charge more than your methodology allows are criminals. First off, your argument assumes that your point of view is correct and then runs from there. You haven't explained why your profit scheme is the ethical way, you only assert that it is and that people who don't follow it must be wrong. This is how you can dismiss arguments, you already make an assumption that you're correct.
3. "irrelavent and superficial factors and contingiencies": You believe that the simplest way to settle this argument is cut out everything but the bare minimum. Now you cited your status as a carpenter as an authoritative position. Other than saying you don't think any of those points matter, do you really have a rebuttal for those points? I don't know what kind of carpenter you are, but I know urban and housing development can be a complicated process. If you're competent to deal with all the factors in real life, you should be able to deal with it here. Really, dismissing a body of points by saying that they suxxors is really a pathetic way of countering. You should be ashamed of yourself. It's only consideration to address points, since you listed off your points in detail already.
Corso
Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:20 am
#33
Stownhart wrote:
Well as long as you insist of bogging any system down with irrelavent and superficial factors and contingiencies, the ability to make a comparison of two scenarios will always be beyond your comprehension. Until you have the capability to strip away the unneccessary guilding and get the root core of a situation, you won't be able to understand the simple and very logical comparison I am making. I see that several of you have felt the need to bash my post here. And I understand that it is standard human nature to attempt to win a debate by over-whelming the opposition with the farce of appering "highly educated". However, how about we get back to topic? This thread is about informing the buyer how they are getting ripped off. Not about the thieves trying to justify there atrocities with cotradictions...reference to getting paid for the "sweat" going into the crafting...reference to playing and having fun. What all the responses hence have only shown is that you that over price don't really have a good argument for doing so. All you have done is try to be flashy with wording to try to justify the wrong doing. There is a title for a person that does such..."Conman"
thank you very much
I do not feel as though I am ripping off anyone. 98% of the items I sell, never decay. They last forever. Imagine a car that would never break down as long as you had gas in it. Even charging 100cpu for our products is a steal. It seems, however that the market will only support 2-5 cpu.
ThrawnUO
Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:21 am
#34
MorrowMoondancer wrote:One of the best threads I've seen in well over a year of this game. Thank you to all of you for appealing to why I play this game.For the record--42 year old executive for a very well known company.As currently structured, anyone who pays attention can buy deeds once and his/her investment never requires re-capitalization. Providing them is an unsustainable industry, absent a steady inflow of new customers--i.e. new toons on whatever server your architect lives. Stown, your pricing model also completely ignores the fundamental cost factor--the architect's time. In any job, you receive recompense in many forms--a paycheck, medical benefits, "pride in one's work," as you point out, the pleasure of working with people you like or who challenge you intellectually, a more comprehensive resume--you can add to the list if you like. In return, you're asked to invest your intellect, your sweat, your passion (sometimes)--and ALWAYS, your time. All of us constantly have a background process running that compares what we get to what we give, and when the outflow exceeeds the inflow for any sustained period of time, we 1) become bitter; or 2) polish up that resume and start hunting for a different crappy job.Given this is a game, the time will always be the most important factor, by orders of magnitude. Discount it at your peril. On a moral level, please consider the concept of whether access to 100 lots represents anti-competitive tactics and whether predatory pricing that ignores the value others place on their time corresponds to real world sweat shops.And then, if you want to charge a third the going rate for harvestors, go right ahead! Pity we don't have the GCW equivalent of the trade federation conflicts...Morrow
Couldnt have said it better. No flame, no BS, just straight shootin logic.
Pawlin
Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:37 am
#35
Stownhart wrote:
Well as long as you insist of bogging any system down with irrelavent and superficial factors and contingiencies, the ability to make a comparison of two scenarios will always be beyond your comprehension. Until you have the capability to strip away the unneccessary guilding and get the root core of a situation, you won't be able to understand the simple and very logical comparison I am making. I see that several of you have felt the need to bash my post here. And I understand that it is standard human nature to attempt to win a debate by over-whelming the opposition with the farce of appering "highly educated". However, how about we get back to topic? This thread is about informing the buyer how they are getting ripped off. Not about the thieves trying to justify there atrocities with cotradictions...reference to getting paid for the "sweat" going into the crafting...reference to playing and having fun. What all the responses hence have only shown is that you that over price don't really have a good argument for doing so. All you have done is try to be flashy with wording to try to justify the wrong doing. There is a title for a person that does such..."Conman"
thank you very much
Ok. How about this: You are a carpenter. You make X dollars per hour. Lets say we could import a carpenter from another country where they make 1/5 as much as you do. If that other guy is willing to work for 1/5 as much as you do, doesn't that make you a "criminal" or "con man"? You're charging 5 times as much for your work as someone else.
Jutewr
Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:04 pm
#36
Dvnce wrote:
Play the game How you wish to play Price how you wish to price... but most of all Do what it takes for you to enjoy the 15 dollars a month that you invest. Buyers Will Love the Deal you are giving them...
That's it exactly. Each person may choose their own pricing for whatever reason they wish. No need to announce that your way is better than everyone else's, just do what you want and I'll do what I want. 
Dvnce
Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:22 am
#37
Stownhart wrote:
OK, let's do some more math;
A master doctor buffs some one for around 2400/6stats for 3 hours. From what I have seen most Docs charge btween 10K and 20K...so lets say 15K average. That buffed (most likely TKM) character then goes out on missions that net him 10K to 25K per...again avarage of 17.5K. Including Soloing these, travel time, terminal access time, and if he/she has no medic abilities a bit of Med Center time, I have seen TKM's that wing these mission about once per 5 minutes. Now over 3 hours...12 missions per hour...total 36 missions at 17.5K income, that is 630,000 income...minus buff - 615K profit in ONLY 3 hours!So by your math standards then a Doc should be charging roughly232,500 per buff. I will remember that next time I am playing a Doc and you need a buff.
Ok Ok ..I cant resist... ( which more or less is the Main point of your thread. Not to Inform the Buyer but more or less draw more and more people into an argument that you are trying to make sophisticated.. )
This section here In no way can be compared to what and Architect Crafts and sells. Buff Pacts are what is called a Consumable product. What Architects Craft and sell ( especially thanks to a most recent Patch ) are Buy once NEVER need to buy again.
Bottom Line Unless there is a Direct Union of Crafters working together FORCING everyone to sell at a certian Price the Sellers Never Dictate Market Price for an Object. Those Who buy make the decision themselves on what they will spend on an Item and whether or not if the Price is equal or less than their percieved Value of that Item.
Play the game How you wish to play Price how you wish to price... but most of all Do what it takes for you to enjoy the 15 dollars a month that you invest. Buyers Will Love the Deal you are giving them...
Piechucker
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:58 am
#38
I posted once on this thread about the logistic and the hidden costs for an archi that non archis dont realise nor perhaps do they care.
Having watched the thread develop, and having spent a few hours with pen paper and calculator, I feel safe in saying that if an archis products where too dear, people simply would not buy them.
Supply and demand for our products took a fairly mortal blow with the alteration to maintenance fee's on houses and harvie.
Furthermore a good archi with access to 20 or so slots, a few million in the bank could simply make stuff and sell it for literaly 1 cpu.
Prob go skint in the process, and stuff up his servers archi community something cronic, but whats the point ???
I for one am happy that the stuff i make for my guild plus the few bits i sell of my vendor have been genuinley crafted, with care and attention. I might not be the best, and yes i might not be the cheapest BUT my customers keep coming back so I must either be doing something right or they must all be stoopid.
I have good relationship with my regulars, so i know its not the latter.
Ok , so my ideals dont match everyones, but its a game I enjoy immensly, and i hope my products serve the community and in turn bring some pleasure to others.
If thats too difficult a concept for some to grasp, then is their anypoint in this thread continuing, as I fell u really just dont get it. Like some people,(real life politicians ) if the others dont say what u want to hear then its "background noise"
Peace
Frank
Having watched the thread develop, and having spent a few hours with pen paper and calculator, I feel safe in saying that if an archis products where too dear, people simply would not buy them.
Supply and demand for our products took a fairly mortal blow with the alteration to maintenance fee's on houses and harvie.
Furthermore a good archi with access to 20 or so slots, a few million in the bank could simply make stuff and sell it for literaly 1 cpu.
Prob go skint in the process, and stuff up his servers archi community something cronic, but whats the point ???
I for one am happy that the stuff i make for my guild plus the few bits i sell of my vendor have been genuinley crafted, with care and attention. I might not be the best, and yes i might not be the cheapest BUT my customers keep coming back so I must either be doing something right or they must all be stoopid.
I have good relationship with my regulars, so i know its not the latter.
Ok , so my ideals dont match everyones, but its a game I enjoy immensly, and i hope my products serve the community and in turn bring some pleasure to others.
If thats too difficult a concept for some to grasp, then is their anypoint in this thread continuing, as I fell u really just dont get it. Like some people,(real life politicians ) if the others dont say what u want to hear then its "background noise"
Peace
Frank
Lolindir
Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:50 am
#39
Hello every one.
For the record, I’m an 28 years old army sergeant that repairs vehicles
Ok, we compare real life to swg. I want a go on that too.
In real life and in swg a successful businessman charge what the customer is willing to pay
If he didn’t do that he wouldn’t be a good businessman!
If customers are willing to pay 95k for a heavy harvester I fail to see why he shouldn’t charge it!
I agree that prices are high on my server. But it will adjust in time and I have to follow that adjustment. But until that time I will charge 95k for a heavy harvester, 40k for a factory, 70k for a large house and 35k for a medium one.
So in the end, it’s the buyer who set the price. If the buyer is willing to buy high, prices will be high. That’s the way in real life and in swg.
For the record, I’m an 28 years old army sergeant that repairs vehicles
Ok, we compare real life to swg. I want a go on that too.
In real life and in swg a successful businessman charge what the customer is willing to pay
If he didn’t do that he wouldn’t be a good businessman!
If customers are willing to pay 95k for a heavy harvester I fail to see why he shouldn’t charge it!
I agree that prices are high on my server. But it will adjust in time and I have to follow that adjustment. But until that time I will charge 95k for a heavy harvester, 40k for a factory, 70k for a large house and 35k for a medium one.
So in the end, it’s the buyer who set the price. If the buyer is willing to buy high, prices will be high. That’s the way in real life and in swg.