Architect Archive

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PosiTec wrote:

Quote:

"Those of us who are moving this product into the marketplace are helping ALL architects by establishing a new going rate."

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Oh please!

You already said that only 3-4 people can build these. Why is that? Is because you are the only ones that will ever have +25 skill tapes?

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Its not that hard. You don't need +25 skill tapes. You need a total of +5, which can be assembled by buying a few +2s and +3. Those lower-grade skill tapes still spawn AFAIK, and can be had for significant but not absurd amounts of money. +25 is overkill.

In addition, the +11 harvesters establish a base-price you can work down from. If a +11 is worth 200k (and people GLADLY pay that), how much is a +10 worth? You can then establish something like 150k as a reasonable price-point for those.

First and foremost, I don't think that they are going to be reset. Secondly, during the questionable time (which I honestly believe we are still in), you should not have sold any harvs to any customers for more money w/out informing them that they might revert back. During this time, I've sold a few heavies with a 10 extraction rate at my exact same pre-release price...simply because my customers and my business are much more important than makin a few extra credits. Once the Arch experimentation questions have been put to rest and everything is settled, I'll start selling structures based on extraction rate. But, as of right now, it just isn't gonna happen.

Again, to the best of my knowledge, exp on extraction rates will stay live, but it's still questionable. So, I'm not gonna sell any of those to my customers unless they are willing to take it based on the fact that it might just revert back.

Brandt

I am of the exact opposit camp, I think they should have nerfed ALL heavies to 4 and then made us experiment like crazy to get new ones to 7.

Faster and cheaper resources is not what is good for us in the long run.

I would have been OK with that but, of course, that's not what they did.

Hey Neilla...that's what you get for using and taking advantage of something that wasn't intentionally put to live - they said so in big red letters here...you chose to ignore it, you made your bed, now you get to lie in it.

I personally hope they make all heavies/mediums revert to base (7kg/h, 100k, fusions 13kg/h, etc) to give everyone who chose NOT to risk taking advantage of their customers the same fair start.

I totally agree with Defconn and others. You made your bed, now lie in it. You derserve it if they revert them. It was unethical to make and sell harvesters with higher extraction rates, for twice the going price, knowing there was a very very good chance they would be reverted. Obviously you were not looking after your customers best interest and only yourself. You deserve what you get.

I, like many others here who do have some morals, will be waiting till the dust settles. I'll make and sell higher extraction harvs to my customers but, they WILL know there is a chance they will be reverted and I will not charge any more than I do already. I WILL recommend they wait to replace all their harvesters though.

I think harvesters should be reset back at least partially, to give all a fair start. Many architects in order to keep keep their good customer relations and knowing that things are going to change have not taken advantage of the confusing situation. Those who took advantage of the situation knowing it might change should not demand anything. You choose to run your business that way noone forced you, you deal with it. Begging for the dev for favours is just not right.

What everyone seems to be missing is that I'm not exposing customers to risk, I'm exposing myself to risk, and I'm continually trying to understand and reduce that risk.

Architects who are selling experimented harvesters at unexperimented prices are doing us all a disservice because you are in the process of setting the market-price for these goods at pre-patch levels. Here's what will happen:

1. You sell rate-10 harvesters for your old price - lets say 125k.
2. 125k becomes the new market price for a rate-10 harvester.
3. Under the most likely scenario, its still possible to make rate-10 harvesters but its very difficult. But the market price remains 125k because you've set it at 125k.

Result: We work twice as hard, experiment our butts off, the miners get a wonderful windfall, and we're still crafting stuff for 3.5-4.5 cpu, working much harder for no greater profit.

What I'm doing is saying, for example, 200k for a Rate-11, 150k for a Rate-10. If my pricing holds up and rate-10 harvesters become more difficult to craft (and 11s become impossible), then at least I'm getting a greater profit in exchange for my harder work. And my customers are getting a superior product, so its a win for Architect AND for miners.

As I see it, those of you who are crafting post-patch harvesters for pre-patch prices are giving away 100% of what we've gotten and turning 'Architect Love' into 'Architect Hate and Miner Love' because we work harder for the same revenue and they get better harvesters for no greater investment.

Very bad business.

I think this whole issue just goes to emphasize how much of a mistake it was to implement experimentation on harvesters without proper testing, notice, and communication from the community. Whether you are pro or con structure experimentation, I hope I am not alone in wondering how this was ever put on the Live servers like this.

People with "old" harvesters have been burned, in that experimentation never mattered so those harvesters weren't experimented. To compete in the "new" harvester world, these people need to upgrade and their "old" harvesters have a low resell value (if any) because they are obsolete.

People with "new" harvesters, particularly some with the insanely high extraction rates, are loving life at the moment and are scared silly that they may lose their uberness.

What's done is done I suppose and I'm not sure there is an easy fix. Some constructive critisism though:

- This isn't Beta anymore. Whether or not to implement experimentation on something that didn't need it previously is a design decision and shouldn't be implemented hastily. A long test cycle, player input, and plenty of notice is needed with this type of change.

- This isn't Beta anymore (part two). GreenMarine mentioned the possibility of a hotfix to address certain issues with the implemented change (which I don't recall seeing in any patch messages to begin with) and some of those changes may involve changing existing schematics. This should NEVER be done via a hotfix as it affects planning and factory crates that have already been built, gathered, etc.

- When changing something such as this which in effect makes existing items obsolete, consideration needs to be taken to reduce the angry cries of "Nerf!"

I recall in EQ when Large Sewing Kits were "nerfed". This was long ago, so I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, but as I recall, the weight wasn't inline with other containers that held the same amount. To balance it, yet make it fair for those who already had them, the existing "Large Sewing Kits" were changed to "Deluxe Sewing Kits" and were made to be no longer available in game. Granted, EQ isn't SWG, but a better method of implementing experimentation on existing harvesters might have been to give existing harvesters a reasonable average extraction and storage as if they were experimented (unless they were built with amazing resources/experimentation to begin with).

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I was never a big fan of introducing experimentation into structures. In thinking about this recently however, I'm fine with this being introduced, but NOT in the manner in which it was done. It was similar with crafting stations when overnight (and missing from the patch message on top of that), most/all crafting stations in the world became obsolete with negative 14 effectiveness and everyone scrambled to chase the moving target.

As I said, however, what's done is done. I do hope, however, that moving forward a more tactful approach is done with implementing these kinds of things. I also hope that any additional changes go through a proper implementation process to make sure it's the right thing for the game as well as getting player buyin. Everyone is different and people will disagree on things, but I think via communication, even those who disagree on a particular like structure experimentation will at least accept the change.

Personally, I would prefer that the experimentation changes get backed out of the Live servers so that they can be properly tested on TC along with getting player input. I understand that some people are opposed to losing their new cash cow so backing it out might not be an option.

Neilla, I won't call you unethical as you stated you told your customers these rates might go away. I won't call people selling for pre-patch prices anything either as they are doing what seems to be the correct thing based on what they understand to be happening with these harvesters.

You made a risky business decision based on your knowledge. You chose to sell at high pricing for items that had a chance to be reset (you clearly stated your thoughts that it could happen). If they're reset and you follow up with your apparent deal to purchase back these harvesters and you go bankrupt, well, thats the risk you took, plain and simple. Happens everyday in the real world... ever hear of junk bonds?

On the flip side, If these rates do stay in, there's no reason why folks currently selling at lower prices simply can't up the price. Just because i sell something today for 100k doesn't mean that tomorrow i don't sell it for 150k.

I personally am in the camp thats avoiding building them at all, but if pushed sell them at roughly my normal prices (I am always on the high end of pricing anyways).

Now, I do have a problem with the way you posted your topic..... resetting rates will not "destroy us". It very well, could destroy you and your business along with anyone else out there who chose to sell these at higher prices and guaranteed the rates.

Please do not include an entire community when it is a very few people that in fact would be damaged by something.

To make sure I did not hurt my customers I simply have not raised my prices on the new extractors yet. That way no one gets hurt. It is not like it is costing me a whole lot more to make them.

Greed is the problem here.

I am still wondering how Neilla could go bankrupt anyway.

If I sold 10 harvesters for 200K each, I would now have 2M creds.

If I am forced to buy them back I will lose 2M creds and now have 10 harvesters.

Net effect on cash = zero. And I have 10 perfectly saleable harvesters (noone else has escaped the reset)

The only issue would be if i had gone out and spent all the money. Simple solution would be to sell off whatever resources or items you purchased.

The only possible way that I can see you going bankrupt is if you frittered it away on stuff that has no possible resale value.

This isnt like the real world where we can bury ourselves in debt and interest payments. There are relatively few (unfortunately) ways for cash to leave the economy completely. House and harvester maintenance barely even make a dent.

heh, Posi, I was thinking the same thing, just didn't put it in writing as my posts get long enough as it is.

the only thing Neilla would seem to be out is the high end resources which were used and now have to be replaced.