Architect Archive
Thread: Please don't reset existing high-extraction-rate deeds it will destroy us
Short version: If harvesters with experimented extraction rates get reset to a reduced extraction rate at this point, I'm bankrupt, and that is no exageration.
Longer version: There is tremendous demand for highly experimented heavy harvesters. A lot of them are getting built and sold. Personally, I've got orders for 20 of the Rate-11 mineral harvesters outstanding. This leaves me financially exposed in a major way. At the going rate (on Gorath) of 200k each, this is 4 million credits worth of business. I'm putting all my working cash and all my stockpiled resources into this; its the first opportunity to make any money in a LONG time and I simply can't aford to sit on the sidelines.
If the Rate-11 mineral harvesters get rolled back even to 10, what's going to happen is:
1) I'm going to have to buy back those harvesters from my customers.
2) I'll be broke.
3) My stockpiled resources will be gone.
In short, I'll be bankrupt.
I don't want to cry chicken-little, because there is no indication that this IS going to happen, but nobody's said it ISNT going to happen, and the fact that some of the early batches of Rate-10s and Rate-11s did spontaneously get rolled back has unsettled a lot of us and has generally unsettled the market.
In addition, a lot of us have made a huge investment in acquiring +75% experimented mining units. If these get nerfed or become unusable, we'll also take a huge hit.
Whatever you do, please let us know far enough in advance that we don't get massacred financially, and please don't do anything without very carefully considering what this is going to do to us.
Even if +4 heavy harvesters WERE a mistake, its too late to undo that mistake without destroying us.
Personally, I think you deserve it. It has been debated in this forum, thelack of ethicsof advertising and selling high extraction rate harvesters, when the Devs have already stated that it is a mistake, and will be rectified.
Most of your peers decided against producing and selling at inflated prices harvesters with higher extraction rates, but you went ahead and gambled.
So, it looks like you will lose. That's the price of gambling.
I have never posted here, though I have a Master Architect account. And upon reading the notice, I continued to conduct business in it's usual manner, i.e. the same prices irrespective of the extraction rates I got, informing my customers that it probably will not stay, so make hay while the sun shone. I still made money, and a lot of it, because my customers trusted me, and continue to buy their fleets from me.
Now, how the profession should be fixed is a whole different topic. And avenues for appeal exists. Discussions are all over the forum. However, taking advantage of a temporary mistake is exploitative.
Flame if you must, but this is a personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
Why on earth would you give people refunds? most non-Architects are just as aware that these changes may reduce harvester rates...most people who took the risk took it because of greed...
"Buyer beware" 
Defconn wrote:Personally, I think you deserve it. It has been debated in this forum, the lack of ethics of advertising and selling high extraction rate harvesters, when the Devs have already stated that it is a mistake, and will be rectified.
Most of your peers decided against producing and selling at inflated prices harvesters with higher extraction rates, but you went ahead and gambled.
So, it looks like you will lose. That's the price of gambling.
I have never posted here, though I have a Master Architect account. And upon reading the notice, I continued to conduct business in it's usual manner, i.e. the same prices irrespective of the extraction rates I got, informing my customers that it probably will not stay, so make hay while the sun shone. I still made money, and a lot of it, because my customers trusted me, and continue to buy their fleets from me.
Now, how the profession should be fixed is a whole different topic. And avenues for appeal exists. Discussions are all over the forum. However, taking advantage of a temporary mistake is exploitative.
Flame if you must, but this is a personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
I think you are misinterpreting the what has been said by GreenMarine. Read his statement carfully:
[quote]
Experimentation on the components of medium and heavy harvesters will contribute to the final extraction rate. We are going to restrict how powerful a harvester you can get.
[/quote]
This and similar statements made by GreenMarine indicate that the crafting process might change so that you can't make Rate-11 heavies any more. They don't even hint at a rollback. Based on the information at hand, the rational thing to do is to build these things while it is still possible.
In terms of my pricing - 200k is the going rate on my server for Rate-11 harvesters. My customers are anxious to get them, even at this price, because they're worth it. 200k is an entirely reasonable price: Rate 7s were selling for 125k on Gorath and, based on extraction rate alone, a Rate 11 should be worth about 180k. This is called value based pricing, and it is NOT gouging. Now, add in the extreme difficulty producing a Rate-11, and the price is entirely reasonable.
So I am delivering value to my customers and pricing my goods according to a model which prices things according to their value and difficulty of production. And I am playing the game as it exists right now, taking into account the information provided by GreenMarine.
I see nothing unethical about either my decision to enter into production or about my pricing. By posting here, I'm looking out for the interests of my customers any myself because, if the devs do something DIFFERENT than what they have said they will do, we are going to get hit very hard economically.
hmm.. would u sell a +10 crafting station the same price as a +40 crafting station..
I think it would be absolutely OK for them to reset all harvesters to a standard extraction rate.
It has been 100% clear from the time this patch went it that the changes it made were screwed up.
I wouldn't care if the Rate 8 heavies stuck around as they arent too extreme... but rate 11 ???
As far as I can see only those people with Uber skill tapes can even make those.The tapes are too powerfull even for skills that top out at 100, but forStructure Experimentation they are insane... a 50% advantage.
So you sunk all your resources into building something you knew was an unfair advantage... and tried to make a ton of cash from it. Now you want them left it when other rates go down, essentialy making them all vastly more valuable. Changine these back wont put you out of business... it will just reduce your profits to the same level as the rest of us.
Sorry... I won't be sad to see all these silly harvesting rates nerfed waaay down.
Oh... I experimented all mine too... but only to protect my customers from having to re-buy again if they leave some level of changes in.My prices for everything I make have stayed the same.. and will continue that way until we actualy see a proper (intentional) implimentation of experimentattion. Hopefully that will come with the next monthly patch.
Quote from GreenMarine's notice:
1. GreenMarine messed up the data for experimentation on extraction rate. You can blame him. Rest assured he's very embarassed and is working right now to fix the problem.
2. Experimentation on the components of medium and heavy harvesters will contribute to the final extraction rate. We are going to restrict how powerful a harvester you can get. Some of the results people are making right now are a bit tooextreme (mainly with fusion reactors).
I am not going to argue, but these two statements clearly underline that the current situation was not meant to be and will not be allowed to stay. So, if you have mislead your customers into believing that the situation will remain, then you have scammed them. Since, even you could not have known if they would stay.
Now you're appealing to GreenMarine to reward your opportunism.
definately 100% hope they revert and hope they do allow some experimentation witout to much extremity.
I have seen on several servers alot of people selling heavys for 200+k becasue of the rates that they harv.
It has been clear that this was going to change and yet people still decided to sell them and are still selling them for a lot higher price than they are worth.
Good job csrs nice to see you are going to chnage it back :]
Lets analyze the pricing. The mining units use about 600 resources. These are ultra-premium components that can only be built by 3-4 people on any given server and should rightfully be sold for 40 cpu, which is 24,000 each. Take 200k for a harvester, subtract 48k, and you've got 152k. That's about 5.5 cpu. THAT is a very reasonable price. And, by the way, the current going rate for a good rate-10 harvester on Gorath is currently about 150k.
The 'going rate' for heavy harvesters got set to an absurdly low value early on - 100k to 125k, which is no more than 1-2 cpu above the cost of resources. We've now got an opportunity now to reset the 'going rate' to something we can actually live with - about 150k for a decent harvester. Going forward, if they reset the schematics so you can't build an 11 any more - that's OK, we will have established a new 'going rate'.
Those of us who are moving this product into the marketplace are helping ALL architects by establishing a new going rate.
Quote:
"Those of us who are moving this product into the marketplace are helping ALL architects by establishing a new going rate."
Oh please!
You already said that only 3-4 people can build these. Why is that? Is because you are the only ones that will ever have +25 skill tapes? I know darn well I can't do that using UT1000 steel and max experimentation.
All of the other Master Architects on the server are totally unable to compete with you, but you are doing them a favour ???? What you are realy doing is trying to protect yourself at the expense of everyone else. SOE have already said repeatedly that they dont want any game unbalancing items.
If they revert (or at least nerf) all the stupid harvester stats that have happened over the last week, and let us all start experimenting from an even playing field (and with 100 experimentation) that will be the fairest way they can go.
Once that happens you can charge anything you like, the market (with competition from ALL MAs) will determine an appropriate price.
I am realy hopeing they do not allow "Pre-Nerf" (or whatever you will want to call it) harvesters.
If you havn't been realy up-front with your customers and had them accept the risk of a revert on the stats then too bad for you. None of our customers should be expected to understand the screwups that have been happening recently... especialy since there are plenty of Architects who don't understand.
Defconn wrote:Quote from GreenMarine's notice:
1. GreenMarine messed up the data for experimentation on extraction rate. You can blame him. Rest assured he's very embarassed and is working right now to fix the problem.
2. Experimentation on the components of medium and heavy harvesters will contribute to the final extraction rate. We are going to restrict how powerful a harvester you can get. Some of the results people are making right now are a bit too extreme (mainly with fusion reactors).
I am not going to argue, but these two statements clearly underline that the current situation was not meant to be and will not be allowed to stay. So, if you have mislead your customers into believing that the situation will remain, then you have scammed them. Since, even you could not have known if they would stay.
Now you're appealing to GreenMarine to reward your opportunism.
First of all: I've misled no-one. I've been up-front with my customers that there is a small chance that rates could conceivabley (but not likely) get reset. Being an ethical person, I'm assuming the risk. THAT is why I'm exposed: because I AM honest. If I was the charlatan you make me out to be, I would have zero risk.
And, being a prudent businessman, I am doing my best to make my concerns known.
MAs who are selling the high-rate harvesters for the old prices are doing us all a disservice because they are missing the opportunity to reset the going rate from something that is unreasonably low to something we can live with. If you are selling rate-10 harvesters for rate-7 prices, you are doing us all a disservice. Instead, do what I'm doing: Sell the experimented harvesters for what they're worth, and agree to assume the risk of a reset.