Architect Archive
Thread: Merchant changes pulled for re-working
Skippy
Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:10 am
#14
Pawlin wrote:
Only issue with that kind of solution is it would exclude all the businesses in the large 'shopping districts' that have developed around the hub NPC cities like Coronet and Theed. There are dozens of shops around those cities that are not in player cities.
This is true, my shop is located in a 'shopping district'.
One solution could be that a Master Merchants could maybe place a terminal in a house, which would be able to list all the vendors in the area, maybe a 200m radius. The owners of the vendors must go to the terminal and register, which will cost a small fee set by the merchant.
Not sure how feasable this would be, just an idea that suddenly sprung into my head as I was reading Dvnce's post.
Edit: Yet more typos
Message Edited by Skippy on 02-14-2005 08:12 PM
Skippy
Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:39 am
#15
Im not sure about registering with the nearest city, but I certainly like the search idea. Its going to be interesting to see what sort of compromise (sp?) SOE come up with.
NewEco
Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:32 am
#16
Pawlin wrote:
Dvnce wrote:
The Problem.. It is sometimes Hard for customers to find products with out having to run to vendor after vendor ....
Solution... Give Player Cities a Market terminal that they can place. Customers Can access this and see ALL Registered Vendors In that City. Customer can access that vendor and See Current Inventory if customer likes what they see they can activate vendors waypoint..This gives a draw to player cities which they need... this also can be tied into merchant skills so that skill point investment is protected.
this in combination with the 1 minute shuttles will Cut 80% shopping time. and nothing else needs to be added.. After all the problem has nothing to do with wanting Every Shop Owner to be a bargain basement.. This satisfies the Problem with out taking away from anyones current gameplay....
Only issue with that kind of solution is it would exclude all the businesses in the large 'shopping districts' that have developed around the hub NPC cities like Coronet and Theed. There are dozens of shops around those cities that are not in player cities.
Pawlin, your analysis is correct, that will screw shopping districts ...... so ...... hm ..... SO WHAT ?!?
That would be great ! My personal oppinion is, that this would be a very positive and welcomed side effect of Dvnce excellent proposal.I don't mind if i have to spent 60 sec to travel to a player city, i don't mind if player cities compete in sales tax and overall city organisation/infrastructure and adminstration, but i do mind, if nice player cities a threatend by the current maintainance system, the politician changes and the lack of vital population and visitation......
just my personal opinion and for your own considerations, please think about "shopping districts" in the context of the announced GCW changes and the limited accessablity of certain Starports ........
Message Edited by NewEco on 02-16-2005 10:36 AM
linusboarder
Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:17 am
#17
Does anyone have a link to the proposed merchant changes. I would like to join in the conversation, but i don't really know what your talking about 
Circe' Pojia
GummiShooter
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:11 am
#18
Follow the white rabbit...
linusboarder wrote:
Does anyone have a link to the proposed merchant changes. I would like to join in the conversation, but i don't really know what your talking about
Crimsonsplat
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:01 am
#19
Dvnce wrote:
Pawlin wrote:
Only issue with that kind of solution is it would exclude all the businesses in the large 'shopping districts' that have developed around the hub NPC cities like Coronet and Theed. There are dozens of shops around those cities that are not in player cities.
Well.. And here is my Personal feeling... These Shopping Districts around Theed and Coronet already have an advantage over Player Cities.. and that is of Location.. Player Cities have been lacking a reason to draw merchants ( especially with sales tax being added to the equation ) I personally am PRO Player City 100%.. and I would love to see things introduced into the game that would actually give people a Benifit to moving to a city and taking "ownership" in citizenship..
But.. If the Masses ( you all ) disagreed with me and voiced that you specifically wanted to accomodate these Shopping Districts then you could also put these terminals at the Bazaar too and have it take in to account XXXX meters around said city..
I personally hate these shopping districts and find that they break immersion terribly. It wouldnt' make me too ill if the Vendor option was disabled on all structures NOT in a city. Though I think the number of cities of each rank allowed on a planet needs to be increased in such cases.
Oh, and a hint to any mayors reading this: One thing I hate is driving into a commercial district and finding the shops packed so closely together, each with 5-6 vendors, that their names all overlap. Individual vendors in each shop appear fine (that was fixed months ago) but cumulatively, the shops all overlap each other and can't be read at any decent zoom level; you have to zoom in tight and get on top of the house. If you do a commercial district, space the the shops out with small gardens between them!
No, that suggestion has nothing to do with the fact that I'm an Architect.... really!
(Well ok, just a little).
Pawlin
Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:47 am
#20
NewEco wrote:
Pawlin, your analysis is correct, that will screw shopping districts ...... so ...... hm ..... SO WHAT ?!?
So... there are tons of people who have very well established shops in those shopping districts. Merchants with mega-malls and 40 vendors in them. Probably hundreds of individual crafter/merchants in individual shops on each server. ON my server alone there are a good 20-30 architect shops outside Coronet. (I've visited them all recently) Multiply that by 25 servers and thats just one profession. These people have put in a lot of time and effort to setup their shop, decorate it, build clientele at the location (WP's stored in customer datapads). If you screw the shopping districts it will screw thousands of people across the game.
If it can be helped at all, I think anynew system should try toNOT 'screw' a large number of players in favor of some other group of players with a different play style or set of circumstances.
admrl_pellaeon
Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:48 pm
#21
It seems to me that the participants in the so-called "shopping districts" made their choice to not join a player city, so if they get left out (or "screwed" as it was said), they can either deal with it and keep right on doing whatever they have been doing, or move to a PC. I like the idea of the PC terminal. Pawlin, you said that there are "tons" of people with "very well established shops." If they are really that well established, then they should have nothing to worry about. I personally don't like the shopping districts, and can count on one hand the number of times I have bought something in one. I would much rather see players attempting to band together and start their own city, and will continue to support them in any way I can, even if its only by doing my shopping there and not in a shopping district.
NewEco
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:27 am
#22
Pawlin wrote:
......
One saying of you, i agree with, is not to "screw" with parts of the player community. i miss-used this phrase because i am not native speaker. But that is not what we are talking about. We are not talking about taking away from somebody, we are talking about adding something. If these shops are well established, they will be able to compete with shops organized in PCs. If the owners decide to relocate, then they ll relocate (and maybe they will get ingame support by something like the ultima-online-moving-crate). My first posting sound maybe a little bit to aggressive then to was ment to be
My prime intention is to improve the traceablility of goods and functionality of PCs and not to nerf shopping districts
if this Dvnce proposal implemeted in the right way, then it will not be a "OMG my shop is completly busted because of these damn city marketterminals" but it will be a rather smooth guidance like "sounds cool, maybe i relocate my shop some day, if i find a nice city major that grants me a good location for my new home"
Message Edited by NewEco on 02-17-2005 04:36 PM
Anthemion
Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:02 am
#23
I am of two minds about Dvnce's proposed solution. My initial reaction is "that sounds perfect" although it would devalue my investment in just out of city limits vendors. On the whole I believe this change is an opportunity to fight ring around the city, but it must be implemented with care as to not place undue hardship to us making a living in the sprawl. Perhaps a 2 step transition giving players time to adjust to a more city oriented economy.
Pawlin
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:22 am
#24
admrl_pellaeon wrote:
It seems to me that the participants in the so-called "shopping districts" made their choice to not join a player city, so if they get left out (or "screwed" as it was said), they can either deal with it and keep right on doing whatever they have been doing, or move to a PC....
It seems to me that the participants in the player cities made their choice not to setup their shops in the more popular shopping districts, so if they get left out (or "screwed" as it was said), they can either deal with it and keep right on doing whatever they have been doing, or move to the shopping districts...
See what I did there?
foobar0
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:23 am
#25
I cannot agree more. There are alot of reasons why having a pure bazaar system, (basically what was suggested, once we set aside the bells and whistles,) is a BAD IDEA:
1. Hyper-competetive "perfect" markets
2. Obsolescent Merchant skills
3. Destruction of the "time-cost" discount
Hyper-competetive markets are endemic in MMORPG's with central purchase centers. The best example I can give is FFXI - Nobody in that game makes money crafting. Nobody. You make money in that game killing stuff, and then selling it to people. This is because everything is sold at a bazaar, where everyone else is selling the exact same items.
Merchant skills will also become unbalanced as a result. Either anyone can list on these terminals, at which point merchant skills immediately become worthless, or it takes some finite merchant skills, (1xxx, 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx? MM?) at which point the merchant tree and the constituent skills now become unbalanced in the OTHER direction. It's now impossible to make money WITHOUT merchant. Merchant skills are now a bit underpowered, in my opinion, but not to the point where we should make huge changes to improve the class, but rather just a few tweaks. The changes we should be making should be evolutionary, nor revolutionary.
The third point deserves some clarification - What I call the "time-cost" discount is the effect that is had when the buyer-player enters the seller-player's establishment. Sure, an item may cost 10k at the current player's establishment, and it may very well be found for 9k at a half dozen other places _somewhere_ in the galaxy, it'd probably take you an hour to find one. How many credits can a consumer-player earn in that hour by grinding missions, ESPECIALLY considering that 4 times out of 5 that player is a combat class? That player's going to do what's in his interest: Pay the mild premium, and then go to Dant and make 10 times more of that back with a single Biz Natch mission, and then take 2 more of the same missions and still have time left over. Oh, and finding a new vendor would probably cost more credits from the shuttling costs alone than what you'd save.
Let us review WHY one would want to change the system the way it is now:
Finding what you're looking for takes an inordinate amount of time right now. You gotta go to half a dozen vendors that are only listed on the planetary map IF the merchant has 3xxx, and even then, it only list the GENERAL products that the merchant carries:
Clothes
Armor
Weapons
HERE'S THE PROBLEM! We should be giving the players a more granular list to the left of the planetary map! Now, instead of just seeing Clothes, I could see what I really want, which are Synthetic Cloth Crates! Instead of seeing something useless, like "Leg Armor", I could find UBESE Leg Armor.
This is my suggestion, a GRANULAR PLANETARY VENDOR MAP.
This has the advantage of not screwing around with the galctic economy nearly as much as the old idea:
1. Markets are only marginally more competetive - The only vendors who are disadvantaged are the ones who weren't carrying the right product in the first place.
2. Merchant Skills could be tweaked to become more powerful, but not overly so. Perhaps at level 3xxx a merchant could list his vendor by product TYPE, only displaying in the upper level of the planetary vendor tree, while 4xxx would also grant listing in the GRANULAR tree leaves. Or not. Both listings could be granted at 3xxx. I don't really care one way or the other. Point is, though, that NOW the Devs have a lever with which they can finely adjust the power level of merchant, instead of an elephant gun.
3. "time-cost" discounts are maintained to a large extent. I understand that the "time-cost" discount is in a great part determined by the hassle we are attempting to solve with either of these changes, and so it will be impacted, but to a much lesser degree than with a galactic bazaar. You still have to go to the vendor, and you'll still need to expend the opportunity cost of your time if you decide to try another vendor.
In the game right now there are alot of people who actually make their way in that world doing little more than crafting superior goods and selling them. The galactic bazaar undermines an economic system to solve a social problem, and in the process, would totally screw them over. Please consider this warning very carefully. I have posted similar comments on the original thread.
1. Hyper-competetive "perfect" markets
2. Obsolescent Merchant skills
3. Destruction of the "time-cost" discount
Hyper-competetive markets are endemic in MMORPG's with central purchase centers. The best example I can give is FFXI - Nobody in that game makes money crafting. Nobody. You make money in that game killing stuff, and then selling it to people. This is because everything is sold at a bazaar, where everyone else is selling the exact same items.
Merchant skills will also become unbalanced as a result. Either anyone can list on these terminals, at which point merchant skills immediately become worthless, or it takes some finite merchant skills, (1xxx, 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx? MM?) at which point the merchant tree and the constituent skills now become unbalanced in the OTHER direction. It's now impossible to make money WITHOUT merchant. Merchant skills are now a bit underpowered, in my opinion, but not to the point where we should make huge changes to improve the class, but rather just a few tweaks. The changes we should be making should be evolutionary, nor revolutionary.
The third point deserves some clarification - What I call the "time-cost" discount is the effect that is had when the buyer-player enters the seller-player's establishment. Sure, an item may cost 10k at the current player's establishment, and it may very well be found for 9k at a half dozen other places _somewhere_ in the galaxy, it'd probably take you an hour to find one. How many credits can a consumer-player earn in that hour by grinding missions, ESPECIALLY considering that 4 times out of 5 that player is a combat class? That player's going to do what's in his interest: Pay the mild premium, and then go to Dant and make 10 times more of that back with a single Biz Natch mission, and then take 2 more of the same missions and still have time left over. Oh, and finding a new vendor would probably cost more credits from the shuttling costs alone than what you'd save.
Let us review WHY one would want to change the system the way it is now:
Finding what you're looking for takes an inordinate amount of time right now. You gotta go to half a dozen vendors that are only listed on the planetary map IF the merchant has 3xxx, and even then, it only list the GENERAL products that the merchant carries:
Clothes
Armor
Weapons
HERE'S THE PROBLEM! We should be giving the players a more granular list to the left of the planetary map! Now, instead of just seeing Clothes, I could see what I really want, which are Synthetic Cloth Crates! Instead of seeing something useless, like "Leg Armor", I could find UBESE Leg Armor.
This is my suggestion, a GRANULAR PLANETARY VENDOR MAP.
This has the advantage of not screwing around with the galctic economy nearly as much as the old idea:
1. Markets are only marginally more competetive - The only vendors who are disadvantaged are the ones who weren't carrying the right product in the first place.
2. Merchant Skills could be tweaked to become more powerful, but not overly so. Perhaps at level 3xxx a merchant could list his vendor by product TYPE, only displaying in the upper level of the planetary vendor tree, while 4xxx would also grant listing in the GRANULAR tree leaves. Or not. Both listings could be granted at 3xxx. I don't really care one way or the other. Point is, though, that NOW the Devs have a lever with which they can finely adjust the power level of merchant, instead of an elephant gun.
3. "time-cost" discounts are maintained to a large extent. I understand that the "time-cost" discount is in a great part determined by the hassle we are attempting to solve with either of these changes, and so it will be impacted, but to a much lesser degree than with a galactic bazaar. You still have to go to the vendor, and you'll still need to expend the opportunity cost of your time if you decide to try another vendor.
In the game right now there are alot of people who actually make their way in that world doing little more than crafting superior goods and selling them. The galactic bazaar undermines an economic system to solve a social problem, and in the process, would totally screw them over. Please consider this warning very carefully. I have posted similar comments on the original thread.
Dvnce
Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:15 pm
#26
Pawlin wrote:
admrl_pellaeon wrote:
It seems to me that the participants in the so-called "shopping districts" made their choice to not join a player city, so if they get left out (or "screwed" as it was said), they can either deal with it and keep right on doing whatever they have been doing, or move to a PC....
It seems to me that the participants in the player cities made their choice not to setup their shops in the more popular shopping districts, so if they get left out (or "screwed" as it was said), they can either deal with it and keep right on doing whatever they have been doing, or move to the shopping districts...
See what I did there?
We were promised Features that would Draw People to Player Cities.. Plus the idea is to become part of a Community as well Not just plop down a vendor the closest to Coronet starport So i can be a quick trip to pick up my goods kinda shop..