Architect Archive
Thread: People who are jacking up our economy...
Rheet wrote:
I was just thinking, isn't this something for maybe the merchant or the General discussion thread. It's not really about architectureanymore. The real base problem isn't the economy it's what we or other people decided to charge for a product. I really think if this discussion were on the general forums it would educate more people and maybe get Daylyn out of our hair. Hey Dayln those are two forums that you havn't annoyed yet. And they have yet to here about Sam walton, wineries, lumber yards, geritol and pvp business.
Hey, that's what I said. People are basically arguing "economic" reasons here, but in truth they are trying to go against what an economy does.
In unrelated information, there are a couple less-than-friendly posts about purchasing resources in bulk. More than 10k. I still argue that the argument behind most people here is that either the people with the biggest problem are trying to make more money, or they are strictly purchasing their resources. I still maintain that an architect can not make any money if all they do is purchase their resources.
There is no problem with using other players lots, if there is an arrangement in place to do such a thing. That's what the social aspect of the game is for, that's why PAs are in place, and that's why you're allowed to set Admin rights. That's just part of what an architect does. Our higher resoruce demands mean that we have to use the game as it's set up.
I maintain that resources are overpriced, and that's the number that's borking the economy, not lower-priced structures. 3c per resource puts a 600% profit-margin on raw materials. Since most architects can pull resources at cost, around the .5-.65c range, let them sell their goods instead of making items. I will continue to pull my own resources, using friends lots and the lots from my second account (which I have to play a combat class, not for extra lots), and supliment them with goods I purchase.
There is no inherent risk or great work in pulling resources. Yes, it's annoying to pull a harvester and move them to a different spot, but usually that's less than an hour of work. I found long ago that keeping clustered harvesters in one area was by far easier than spreading them out over a long arc, and that's how I get about 85% of what I use. So a 3c price per unit is over-inflated, and should be what falls into line.
We can argue this out on the board all day, but eventually it's going to come down to one thing. In the end, people will purchase goods at the prices they are willing to pay. One side can scream things are to high, one can scream that they are looking for sales. Even though raw materials may sell for more than the final cost, the final good is what is in demand. And when I get my own resources as the main source, I still make a profit in the end.
My current orders look like this:
4 Heavy Harvesters, 34 Medium Harvesters, 11 Medium Houses, 21 Small Houses
Now I make a profit on every structure I sell. I carry aworking queue of 2 days on an order, or longer if it's a larger order. For a price premium, I allow for expediated manufacturing.
We can go round and round on this all day long, but in the end I am still selling, making a profit, and enjoying playing the game. Can you say the same?
dWhisper wrote:
Vyper51 wrote:
Anyone else think that the undercutters don't play well with others? They're obviously very solo people......they don't give a **edit** about the economy or other architects. Way to go guys. Thanks for playing!
No, we don't play well with people who assume we're the ones messing up the economy. We play well with our clients, other architects that sell for resonable prices, people who ascribe resonable prices to resources, and we manage our lots and harvesters well. We work with other players to augment how many lots we have to deal with, and also are willing work with other players to ascribe an affordable and reasonably priced finished good.
We play plenty well with others. You're the one tossing insults here. We also work with the economy, and realize that it fits to market demands, not the demands of single suppliers.
Lol, argue with Dayln for like five pages, then watch as a large number of other architects contemplate his innane drivel, and you would too. I love your "reasonable prices"quotes. Do you realize the difference in the prices we're contemplating here? 1-2 CP/R is unacceptable. 3-4 CP/R is, but is still on the low side. Exactly who is selling high here? There aren't any architects living high on the hog on these prices.
You also disregard the fact that once all architects sell their wares to everyone who will buy one, there's nothing left to do in the game for us. Hmm, yep, like a bazillion of us mentioned that.
Single suppliers? Care to count how many angry architects are on here, and then count how many undercutters support Dayln? Go on, go through the pages, count them. Architects are part of the entire economy too. Alot of us are broke, angry, and unappreciated as a skill. And it is mostly the fault of Dayln and his undercutting kin. Thanks for the insults I have to go through trying to make a decent living.
Arguing with undercutters is like arguing with a brick wall. Except the brick wall has better business sense......
Vyper51 wrote:
Lol, argue with Dayln for like five pages, then watch as a large number of other architects contemplate his innane drivel, and you would too. I love your "reasonable prices"quotes. Do you realize the difference in the prices we're contemplating here? 1-2 CP/R is unacceptable. 3-4 CP/R is, but is still on the low side. Exactly who is selling high here? There aren't any architects living high on the hog on these prices.
I'm going to dodge the Dayln bullet all-together. How do you base that 1-2 cpu is unacceptable? At .5-.65 cpu per resource, and that's an estimate at a 45% spot, a 1 cpu price is still a 100% profit on investment. You're trying to tell me that just by putting down harvesters suppliers are entitled to a 600-800% profit level, but that is still too low? Hardly.
Quality is not a push for architects. Failures are not dependant on that, and using experimentation on anything other than crafting stations is a waste. So we're about quantity, not quality. So where you can find ore is where you pull it. That means that you don't have to look for the resource pools. Time is negligable, since the time placing harvesters in minimal in comparison for the time they are pulling minerals. There is no skill-point cost associated with them. Real estate can be in short supply, but our main commoditiy, Ore, has a spread of several hundred meters to a single percentage point. The initial startup cost is negligible as well, since it is only paid once, or built once. After that, it's redeeding costs and maintinence costs.
I define reasonable as as a price-point between the break even point for profit and the maximum acceptable price that a consumer will accept. The main problem is that a portion of architects are wanting to put the pricing outside of the level where our customers want to purchase the structure.
You also disregard the fact that once all architects sell their wares to everyone who will buy one, there's nothing left to do in the game for us. Hmm, yep, like a bazillion of us mentioned that.
And if we don't sell our stuff to everyone who will buy one, what then? Why touch on this point, that's a given. We are a limit-use class, and how we make money is attracting new customers to purchase our goods. I sell to someone, and they have harvesters. There's nothing to argue here, because that's just how it works... for now.
Single suppliers? Care to count how many angry architects are on here, and then count how many undercutters support Dayln? Go on, go through the pages, count them. Architects are part of the entire economy too. Alot of us are broke, angry, and unappreciated as a skill. And it is mostly the fault of Dayln and his undercutting kin. Thanks for the insults I have to go through trying to make a decent living.
Single suppliers are the ones trying to do argue that these prices are these prices and that everyone should match that. You accused us of not playing well with others, and being loaners. I'm not saying I agree with Dayln, or that Undercutting and selling for a loss is the way to do thing. I think that valuing goods on a different scale is the way. I value according to my cost of goods, not my eventually selling point of goods. I could make a profit on all the raw materials, but I'm not a miner, I'm an architect.
I have not resorted to insulting or name calling. I'm trying to bring a reasonable alternative to the arguement using logic and economic principles. I get bashed on the boards for the prices I set, even though I make a profit.
Unappreciated I will give you, but that's a two-edge sword. Somewhat because there are so many of us, but also because for every architect selling low there is one selling rediculously high. I saw one in Coronet earlier today that would not take anything less than 65k for an Equipment Factory, and 275k for a large house.
And if you're broke, maybe you should go to selling just the unfinished goods. Or re-evaluate what you're doing when you're producing a good, and what your cost structure is set at. I have 2 million credits in the bank, and orders backed up for a week. If I wasn't making a profit, eventually I wouldn't be able to do anything with my goods, because I would run out of money. I don't run other missions to suppliment my income, I don't sell any other Artisan products. Just deeds and furniture. I currently have 18 harvesters going, and some of them I even purchased from another architect because I was too busy selling the ones I'd built.
Basically what I'm saying is that I'm not undercutting you. I'm selling for a profit and doing good business. I use that money in turn for several things: rare resources, droids, bulk resources, funding equipment and just general savings.
Right now my business is based on five very strong clients. I've been funding a large house and large harvesters for one, who in turn has been turning clients to me. I have another that resells my deeds at a slight markup on his vendors, which are on two different planets.
Arguing with undercutters is like arguing with a brick wall. Except the brick wall has better business sense......
Unfortunately, it's not much different when we argue back.
All I'm saying is that one of two things will happen. Most architects will give up and do something else, or the architect community as a whole will re-evaluate how they do business and rate their values.
Resource prices right now are a tricky thing. Most players don't realize the killing they could make selling resources, even at 2c per unit, to all the crafting types. There is obviouslly a flood of all Artisan-Based classes, and therefore high demand for resources. Once that levels off, the cost of resources will drop. Or if more players just go and purchase those harvesters they can put down and then sell what they pull, it will drop. Everything balances out. Trying to artificially push the demand-price point for one good higher because the supply-price point of a resource commoditiy is just bad economics. Customers don't like it, and it splits the industry.
EdOWar wrote:
RoadieRik:
Technically you are right, Dayln isn't following rational economic principals when he sells structures for less than what he could sell the raw resources for on the bazaar. However, clearly, rational economics doesn't apply (except in an abstract theoretical sense) because this is a game and credits arenotreal money. If credits were real money, then I'm sure Dayln would sell the resources instead ofmaking structures (or he would charge more for his structures).
Obviously. Everyone reading this thread who thinks we are talking about real money, raise your hand! Seriously though, we are talking about economics, specifically the in game economy. As such, rational economics (redundant) does apply. It doesn't MATTER whether the entire in game economy collapses, true, because its a game and not real. But the principles of economics apply, regardless. My argument is not whether or not Daylin can do what he wants with his imaginary resources and imaginary money. People are telling him that he has a nonsensical view of the economy and no understanding of economic principle AND that actions such as his turn the entire economy into nonsense. Does this mean he needs to do things differently? No, its a game and he has a right to play how he sees fit within the rule set (which he is doing). But he shouldn't parade his reasoning as economically sound and correct when its not.
EdOWar wrote:
From a business perspective what Dayln is doing is perfectly legimate and rational. He is competing on the basis of price and customer service (of course, presentlythese are the only two ways for architects to compete). If he can harvest his own resources for 0.50 credits/unit and sell them for 2-3 credits/unit, then he is making a huge profit, even after you factor in redeeding costs and the time it takes to craft structures. That's a 400-600% profit on a per resource basis. In real life any company would kill to be able to get a 400% profit margin. Stores like Wal Mart frequently make less than 1% profit for each item they sell, though they still make huge profits through volume selling (of course, volume selling isn't as practical in SWG due to lot and time limitations).
Ah but the title of the thread is not "People who are jacking up our business."
In the real world many things that are good business are not good for the economy. Likewise in a fictional economy.
EdOWar wrote:
If other architects are not able to acquire the resources they need as cheaply as Dayln can, it does not mean that Dayln is competing unfairly. What it means is Dayln has a competitive advantage over less efficient architects. This is the essence of business, people. You either become a more efficient competitor, or you leave the field. That's it.
There are two ways to increase profits in a declining market: 1) increase prices or 2) decrease costs. With so many architects and a declining market for deeds, which option do you think is the most feasible?
I know a lot of architects are going to flame me now, but that is the way it is whether you like it or not.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Again the debate (at least for me) is not whether Dayln's practices arebad business practicesfor him. Its about whether they are economically sound and rational. Most people arguing with him are mentioning the opportunity costs involved in architecture. They are arguing thathis practices arenot economically sound and rational and that when enough people practice in this manner the whole economy becomes irrational. He's arguing that they are wrong and they are not wrong. If he made a statement to the effect that he knows his practices are not economically sound but he's having fun and he likes his profit margin just fine regardless of how economically nonsensical his model is, I'd simply say "I'm happy you're enjoying the game and having fun". But that's not what he's saying.
It's all pretty pointless anyway. Though many of us would love a "realistic" economy to play around with we won't see it even if folks like Dayln change their pratices. Our products are all theoretically indestructable. With an unrealistic finite demand for our products we will never have a working economy.
So to Dayln: do what you like. Enjoy the game as much as you can. Have fun! But please don't pretend to know a darn thing about economics, that's all I ask.
I totally agree with the idea of Opportunity Cost and the ideal of Rational Decision making and in context of a Player Driven ECONOMY in the Game the concepts of Supply and Demand and Opportunity costs absolutely can and do play a part on the overall economy.
If I go to run my harvesters and spend 3-4 hours on rounds the opportunity cost would be the amount I could earn in that time by running missions + the maintenance costs + the value of the power consumed.
If I use these resources to create a product the opportunity cost is the total amount of resources consumed (accounting for criticals) at the fair market price + the amount I could earn in that time by running missions
Few if anyone said there should be price fixing and the Opec example is for the very large part inaccurate and inflamatory. If some folks had exclusive access to 66% of the Galaxies limited supply ofCarbonate and could leverage this for selling RAW MATERIALS then maybe this would mean something. What folks have done is suggestthat pricing of FINISHED PRODUCTS should account for the Economic value of the resources accounting for the Market Price and the Opportunity Costs of getting them.
This value changes all the time and there are always going to be those who value their time less than others resulting in undermarket values. This does drive the price down and some folks will end up leaving the trade in frustration finding it really isn't worth all the effort given that they could make more money by more entertaining means.
NORMALLY this would result in the prices adjusting upwards as the remaining merchants of these products would have trouble keeping up with demand however given that there is no decay on items there is a continuous downward trend on the demand side.
What has been suggested is that the prices should be based on the market value of the materials being used for the houses. These market values can and do fluctuate regularly. Because of quality is of reduced importance it is true that the market value of these materials are lower. But, when you come across a site with a good concentration of excellent quality metals you are using a metal of higher value. True you can use inferior stuff but heck, if you got it you use it and there's always the question of: Should I make a Wall out of it or Sell it on the market?
While the toughness of our materials isn't of paramount importance anyone who says it has no importance hasn't been an Architect very long. If you use feeble materials for the final mix you run the risk of massive resource losses. Experimentation serves little purpose but using experiemented components reduces critical failures just as using tougher resources does.
In as far as my pricing goes I usually charge between 2.5-4 cr per unit depending on how it rounds out, how many orders I have pending, and how much materials I have on hand. If I know I can make N structures and I have N+M orders I won't deny the M people the opportunity to buy my product. While I may be making N people happy, M people are unhappy. Heck, if I'm going to have people unhappy it might as well be those who aren't resourcefull enough to value my time and effort.
This not greed, this is not undercutting, this is just what I consider to be good business sense.
I totally disagree that Daylin has won anything. He responds to personal attacks with personal attacks, ignores well thought out arguements, repeats the same exact stuff again, then claims he won the debate? Sorry Daylin, you have won nothing from my perspective.
Finally, nobody is right and nobody is wrong. If folks want to sell at or a small margin over cost, all the power to them. As long as it is honest and without the use of exploits or cheats I really couldn't care less. If folks are upset they are forced out of the market because the work is too much for the return I don't blame them for speaking out.
Fidg'Ter
Dayln wrote:
That is right, if you cant win an argument you go into personal attacks,
I agree I also think I won.
Ah that's funny.
That comment wasn’t really aimed at you Rath.
When arguing with a little kid however, one easyway to tell you have won is when they immediately drop into personal attacks. They cannot stand up to your argument so they just try to attack you personally.
You never did that, nor did Shila, nor most of the others, nor did I.... it was a long thread. He however was just a troll, an obviously an immature one at that, he had nothing to add, just put downs.
We aren’t going to agree, that much is clear. One difference between an adult and a child is that adults can agree to disagree. I don’t believe I persuaded you at all, and I know your arguments did not persuade me. But the kid throwing bombs clearly couldn’t stand up to the discussion.
Hey, check out my thread on an Architect Guild.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Starsider&message.id=62237
SOME of this would be solved by a guild of Architects that present a unified face to the community. It would certainly make it easier to force guys like D to change their business practices, instead of trying to reason with stubborn onists.
Ezekeil Church
I just don't like Dalyn because he talks about being an amazing businessman, when all he's doing is selling cheap. It's not rocket science. You can mine X amount of resources per day. The more you get for your resources, the better your profit, therefore the better the businessman you are.
Crafting skills are a way to INCREASE the value of your resources. I mine for about .5 cred per resource, and sell raw resources for 5+, Deeds for 6.5, and Armor for about 60.
I am succeeding as a crafter in making profit. Dalyn isn't, but he's a VERY good miner. *Pats Dalyn on the head*
Rational discussion is useful, but only with intelligent people. For those who are unable to reason (unreasonable one might say), I find that insults are more fun, and less aggrivating for me. It's like trying to convince a terrorist that he shouldn't blow up busses, it's just a waste of your time. (Although somewhat entertaining now & then) It's easier just to put a bullet in the terrorist.
The ability to bemagnanimus is an argument iscrutial to the value of the argument. You have not done this at all when it comes to other peoples point of view Dayln.
The only thing you have done is push you view with out adding any value to it or trying to weigh your view to others.
You havnt evenaknowledaged any one elses view other then your owen.
Why is credits the only thing most crafters are interested in ?
Sorry, but that is what this thread sounds like to me.
If someone enjoys to be an Architect for the simple fact he loves to build stuff and sells at a price that allows him to continue to do that then why in the world is he doing something wrong ?
If he has FUN then he has WON.
If you count your success as an Architect only with the credits on you bank account then you will have a problem to enjoy this class. And it's not going to get any better over the month.
And no one but yourself is responcible for your success or failure as an Architect.
Stop telling people how they should play or for what prices they should sell. It's anoying in the best case.
You want to get payed for your time investment as a crafter ? Man, that sounds like your doing an RL job here and one you dont like on top of it.
Like it's so bad to play a crafter that it's only bearable if you get rich by doing what you dont like to do.
Ask yourself why you play swg. Ask yourself why you play a crafter.
There are many ways to have fun in swg and most of them have not much to do with credits.
Sorry, just cant stand the whining anymore.
If my goal was just to make credits I would sell resources, that isn’t my goal.
I don’t particularly care what your goal is.
My goal is to run a successful architect business in a declining market for the fun of it. You can analyze and theorize and make bold lofty statements. I could care less, I know what I am doing is working for me. No argument you could ever make can change that. I will do the best I can to be successful in the goal I set, so far I am doing very well.
If I just wanted credits is the fastest way I wouldn’t even be an architect. By his statements about economy no one who is an architect is logical or rational, everyone on this board is a bunch of dummies. Well, he wont change my mind, I am not as one dimensional as he is, I am enjoying myself and will continue too run my business in the game the way I please.
And every time someone says "those undercutting jerks who don’t know anything about business ruined it for me". I will read that as, "I could not compete with a better business and am giving up" and smile.
I wont run everyone else out of business of course, there are a lot of people out there that enjoy selling structures and understand the market we live in ( unless SOE changes something ). Quite a number in fact on my server alone, Some are likely better than I am, but I think there is room for quite a few of us.