Architect Archive
Thread: Dev Response on FS Crafting XP Issue
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Betatoxin
Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:17 pm
#1
Ooops I forgot the ? on the subject...my bad...this is not a link to an official response but a request to know if anything is happening...
Dvnce,
I realize there may not be any specifics, but has the issue of crafter XP for the crafting FS trees come up in the correspondent forums? Are those forums even active any more?
I ask because you seem to be a correspondent on top of things.
This XP requirement (particularly for architect...ouch...) seems way off and not well considered. Especially considering that a crafter has to operate his grind at a net loss (maintenance or out right buying resources) compared with a non-crafter who actually makes credits while grinding.
The fact that combat XP lines in regular professions have several times the XP requirements as crafting lines (even architect) should be good evidence how much easier combat XP is generally to get than crafting XP (gungan heads not withstanding). This model should have been carried over to the FS trees as well if grinding had to be a part of achieving a full row.
With the non-existant comments from developers on an issue that is creating substantial debate I was just wondering if the devs are muttering about it on any level...
Thanks,
btw, my architect is Theo Tero on Chilastra.
Dvnce,
I realize there may not be any specifics, but has the issue of crafter XP for the crafting FS trees come up in the correspondent forums? Are those forums even active any more?
I ask because you seem to be a correspondent on top of things.
This XP requirement (particularly for architect...ouch...) seems way off and not well considered. Especially considering that a crafter has to operate his grind at a net loss (maintenance or out right buying resources) compared with a non-crafter who actually makes credits while grinding.
The fact that combat XP lines in regular professions have several times the XP requirements as crafting lines (even architect) should be good evidence how much easier combat XP is generally to get than crafting XP (gungan heads not withstanding). This model should have been carried over to the FS trees as well if grinding had to be a part of achieving a full row.
With the non-existant comments from developers on an issue that is creating substantial debate I was just wondering if the devs are muttering about it on any level...
Thanks,
btw, my architect is Theo Tero on Chilastra.
Message Edited by Betatoxin on 09-07-2004 03:18 PM
Dvnce
Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:00 pm
#2
Yes,.,, these are being discussed.. And I am being a pain in the bumb about what our ratio's are...
Pawlin
Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:37 pm
#4
I bet statues are a main reason they jacked up our FS XP ratio. If all it takes is 1 crafting settion to get 5k xp from statues, that means we earn XP about 10 times as fast as other crafters. Thus the much higher FS XP ratio.
If they instead nerfed statue XP then we'd be more in line with the rest of the crafters and maybe they do a FS XP ratio of like 1:10 or something.
Dvnce
Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:45 pm
#5
Since you brought it up
Pawlin wrote:
If they instead nerfed statue XP then we'd be more in line with the rest of the crafters and maybe they do a FS XP ratio of like 1:10 or something.
how would everyone feel about this...? ( not the grinders but the real "I play architect cuz I enjoy playing architect" types..)
Bandola
Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:54 pm
#6
I for one would be all for it, however I would question if this is enough, if statues are nerfed, then presumably the 'grinders' would merely switch to something like structural modules and/or walls to gain the xp they want, they may take a little longer, but they still generate xp pretty fast. So nerf walls as well ?
Elyssa
Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:23 pm
#7
I'm all for it.
...the statues, not the walls.
Walls, at least, are integral to the profession and not just a convenient thing to grind.
Moepple
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:11 am
#8
Dvnce wrote:
Since you brought it up
Pawlin wrote:
If they instead nerfed statue XP then we'd be more in line with the rest of the crafters and maybe they do a FS XP ratio of like 1:10 or something.
If I am not wrong, the amount of XP granted by the Gungan head statues is "buged" and need a fix since months. It is not twice the ressources.
Just for your Information: If you are not happy with the exp, make wind harvesters......
Betatoxin
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:16 am
#9
Thanks for the reply Dvnce. It is good to know that someone is bringing this to dev attention.
Having mastered Architect twice on structural modules and walls I never did use the gungan head (was finished long before that schematic was added) but still that is no reason to make architects spend 7 times the resources as other professions to level.
It seems the developers have forgotten that it is not just clicks, but resources that go into leveling a crafter.
Oh how nice would it be to be able to get xp doing something other than making the same item over and over and over again for crafters. I am sure all crafters would rejoice at that....
One more request? In those discussions please, if you have not already, mention that...
1) Crafters get XP only by spending money. There is no net return on what they produce for grinding in general. That is the most efficient way to get XP as a crafter is to burn credits and resources for a net loss. Compare this to combat professions where if they are producing XP at their most efficient they are also producing credits and loot items (many of which are very valuable).
This means combat professionals, for their effort recieve loot, credits and advancement. Crafters lose credits, lose resources, and get advancement. Something is wrong with that equation.
2) XP Reqs have traditionally been lower for crafters. Presumably because although there is no risk, there is cost in resources, and tedium (more so than combat) associated with mastering a crafting profession. I mean crafting was even supposed to have usage XP..way back when. Why then were the XP reqs for crafting in FS substantially similar to combat?
3) Some crafting professions are looking at 14,000 or more items which works out to 196,000 clicks assuming everything except resource selection is macro'd for 3 crafting lines for weaponsmith. Why has hundreds of thousands of mouse clicks become content for crafters in SWG? Why would the developers knowingly impliment a system that encourages players, many of them young players who may not realize it, to engage in a physical activity that can have long term damaging effects to their wrists and hands.
I just do not see why advancement has to require repetitive strain injury risk. Why not make an NPC that takes 5 million resources and 12 weeks later gives you your FS crafting tree. Several hundred thousand less clicks, still "costly" in that you have to get those resources (either harvesting or spending cash you had to make) and is gated for time. You can still have quests in there too. At least that mechanism would allow crafters to engage in what they really do, collect resources and make credits while their are waiting for their force XP to be made. Call it a donation of resources to the village and because if their altruism they advance in the force...
So little that is crafting is actually clicking on the craft menu...aparently the devs do not realize this..
Keeping in mind that many crafters are purely going for the FS skills, and will not probably go on to jedi I am not sure why the bar has been set so high for these 4 trees.
Primarily crafting is about running a business. Adding a few extra skill points is a nice veteran perk, but is hardly a reason to require from players such mind numbing tedium. The game is not going to be ruined by a flood of new FS crafters, what could ruin it is people asking themselves why they have to put up with 196,000 mouse clicks to have an competive crafter.
Just to be clear when it comes to crafting I do have a lot of experience in both crafting and combat professions. I have been in game since release and currently share 4 accounts that include a weaponsmith, smuggler, architect, merchant, droid engineer, and a BE at one point. This is in addition to a combat character.
Sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant...I have to be honest these FS crafting XP requirements have me at a bit of a loss...
Having mastered Architect twice on structural modules and walls I never did use the gungan head (was finished long before that schematic was added) but still that is no reason to make architects spend 7 times the resources as other professions to level.
It seems the developers have forgotten that it is not just clicks, but resources that go into leveling a crafter.
Oh how nice would it be to be able to get xp doing something other than making the same item over and over and over again for crafters. I am sure all crafters would rejoice at that....
One more request? In those discussions please, if you have not already, mention that...
1) Crafters get XP only by spending money. There is no net return on what they produce for grinding in general. That is the most efficient way to get XP as a crafter is to burn credits and resources for a net loss. Compare this to combat professions where if they are producing XP at their most efficient they are also producing credits and loot items (many of which are very valuable).
This means combat professionals, for their effort recieve loot, credits and advancement. Crafters lose credits, lose resources, and get advancement. Something is wrong with that equation.
2) XP Reqs have traditionally been lower for crafters. Presumably because although there is no risk, there is cost in resources, and tedium (more so than combat) associated with mastering a crafting profession. I mean crafting was even supposed to have usage XP..way back when. Why then were the XP reqs for crafting in FS substantially similar to combat?
3) Some crafting professions are looking at 14,000 or more items which works out to 196,000 clicks assuming everything except resource selection is macro'd for 3 crafting lines for weaponsmith. Why has hundreds of thousands of mouse clicks become content for crafters in SWG? Why would the developers knowingly impliment a system that encourages players, many of them young players who may not realize it, to engage in a physical activity that can have long term damaging effects to their wrists and hands.
I just do not see why advancement has to require repetitive strain injury risk. Why not make an NPC that takes 5 million resources and 12 weeks later gives you your FS crafting tree. Several hundred thousand less clicks, still "costly" in that you have to get those resources (either harvesting or spending cash you had to make) and is gated for time. You can still have quests in there too. At least that mechanism would allow crafters to engage in what they really do, collect resources and make credits while their are waiting for their force XP to be made. Call it a donation of resources to the village and because if their altruism they advance in the force...
So little that is crafting is actually clicking on the craft menu...aparently the devs do not realize this..
Keeping in mind that many crafters are purely going for the FS skills, and will not probably go on to jedi I am not sure why the bar has been set so high for these 4 trees.
Primarily crafting is about running a business. Adding a few extra skill points is a nice veteran perk, but is hardly a reason to require from players such mind numbing tedium. The game is not going to be ruined by a flood of new FS crafters, what could ruin it is people asking themselves why they have to put up with 196,000 mouse clicks to have an competive crafter.
Just to be clear when it comes to crafting I do have a lot of experience in both crafting and combat professions. I have been in game since release and currently share 4 accounts that include a weaponsmith, smuggler, architect, merchant, droid engineer, and a BE at one point. This is in addition to a combat character.
Sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant...I have to be honest these FS crafting XP requirements have me at a bit of a loss...
Moepple
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:52 am
#10
Well, they said it will not require to alter your char, which isnt true since you need skillpoints, and it will take longer than grinding the old way.
To ensure this, you need to "eat up" more exp. It tooked almost all crafting professions to unlock your slot prepatch. To ensure you need longer this way, you just have to collect the exp of all the crafting professions, but you dont need to reskill in return.
That is, more or less, the logic behind the system as it is now.
In other words, you needed to do this before, I cant see any reason why this is a problem now, beside the fact that it shows not much creativity.
The major change is that you need crafting exp for crafting benefits, and that may be the reason to lower requirements a bit. But the main goal should be to not provide a path that is easier than other paths to the jedi, cause this would mean that everybody uses that path.
Its tricky, and if you dont change the overal system, which they failed to do, its hard to find a good balance between professions.
The big problem is, and thats the only real issue in SWG crafting, that you dont get anything out of grinding stuff. Usinga factory is much more reliable if you need good stuff. But as a Master, you COULD make stuff you can sell. I know, its pointless. However, bringing back those 10% exp from the factories would be a good idea (Its buged, it wasnt removed intentionally?), so we can get something out of our daily work, as fighters do.
Read ya.
Bandola
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:57 am
#11
I confess to not being that interested in all this FS business, however what does occur to me is 'why all the fuss?'.
When I look at things purely from my own selfish perspective I see it working something like this:
I continue with my humble profession in pretty much the same way as I do today.
I make all my components by the tens of thousands through my factory as before.
I combine these with resources by the thousandsto make the products that I sell.
As a side effect I gain crafting xp albeit at a reduced rate.
At some time in the future, without doing anything extraordinary I amass enough xp anyway.
As I said at the start, I am not interested in the FS aspect, so I do not know that this is how it is going to work, but it seems to me I will get there without any particular effort, and that the only people who will have a problem with this will be the grinders. Now that suits me fine, I actually like it this way.
Can anybody enlighten me, have I got it all wrong?
Moepple
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:19 am
#12
Bandola wrote:
I confess to not being that interested in all this FS business, however what does occur to me is 'why all the fuss?'.
When I look at things purely from my own selfish perspective I see it working something like this:
I continue with my humble profession in pretty much the same way as I do today.
I make all my components by the tens of thousands through my factory as before.
I combine these with resources by the thousandsto make the products that I sell.
As a side effect I gain crafting xp albeit at a reduced rate.
At some time in the future, without doing anything extraordinary I amass enough xp anyway.
As I said at the start, I am not interested in the FS aspect, so I do not know that this is how it is going to work, but it seems to me I will get there without any particular effort, and that the only people who will have a problem with this will be the grinders. Now that suits me fine, I actually like it this way.
Can anybody enlighten me, have I got it all wrong?
Hi,
you did, and you did not. What you say is absolutely true, but there is something missing.
What people are complaining about is the fact that fighters get exp and money due to their daily work for everything they kill. Crafters dont get exp for anything they do. IF crafters would get exp for every item they craft, even in the factory, then it would be the same.
In fact, I need to use the factory to have a reliable quality and to minimize loss. A fighter has no quality-changes in killing. He gets the mission reward and the drops and harvesting resources anyway.
At the beginning of SWG, crafters got 100% of the exp per item when using the factory, they changed that to 10% very fast, a few weeks after launch. Today you dont get anything when using a factory, but not using it makes no sense, except for grinding.
The big difference is: Fighers gain exp and money due to grinding, crafters gain exp but loose money due to grinding BUT fighters gain exp and money if they dont grind, crafters dont get much to no exp when not grinding and of course, money if they do a good job.
I fully agree with you that crafters seem to be able to just wait, but so do fighters. But thats one way you could play.
No matter how your style of playing is, there is no way to get "cheap" exp for crafters. You have to pay for everything you do instead of getting money.
As far as I know, you get no exp at all for using a factory now, if you would at least get those 10% still, it would work the way you mentioned.
Read ya.
Bandola
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:25 am
#13
Moepple wrote:
As far as I know, you get no exp at all for using a factory now, if you would at least get those 10% still, it would work the way you mentioned.
Read ya.
Ahhh, theres the rub 
So rather than nerf anything (statues) all they need to do is give a reasonable level of xp for factory produced goods, seems an easy solution to me 
I should be a dev, I could fix that in the blink of an eye 
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