Architect Archive

Thread: Architect role too easily filled by part-time or temp architects.

Delai
Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:51 am
#1

I am bringing this up again and as a post here because of the Correspondant board that is supposedly being created. IfI could get any dev feed back thru our Correspondant, I'd appreciate it:


Right now, there is no reason which is ingameand not roleplay-related to remain an Architect. Urban Planners are not ingame. Further, I don't consider a profession based off one which is not yet function a sane or smart idea.


The fact that decay is so easy to fix without any architect's help while experimentation and quality of materials doesn't effect the results of any Architect end products means that there is absolutely no reason to be anything other than a temp or part-time Architect.


This resultsin several things:



  • many artisan-based elites getting to 0 - 0 - 3*4 -1 in theArchitecttreejust tostockpilemediumor heavyharvesters, factories and houses thatthe player feels he mayneed or want for an intended "true" profession. Once the temps aredone stockpiling, they start surrendering archskills as skillpoints are needed.
  • very little reason to remain an architect permamently even if that was your intended profession.
  • full-time and master architects having to deal with a market which is flooded by architect product being sold at a lower price than 3cpu (which is the average cost of any quality resource) by short-sighted, "temp"architects who are very willing to ruin the market for "true" architects if it means that their resource intense grind might be finished sooner and their stockpile completed.

Architects need to be given several things to encourage future non-arch*crafters from taking Architect asjust atemp job and actually consider buying their harvesters from full-time Architects who take the time required to make better quality end-products. These are the ideas that need to be implemented to encourage this decision making to be required:



  1. variables involved in construction should matter:

    • experimentation, skill of the crafter, andquality of resources need to matter in structure maintenance fees, structure storage capacity, structure effectiveness and structure power consumption.
    • This would mean that a Master Weaponsmith-Pistoleer-Artisan (who would be limited to only getting level3 in the installations tree of architect and would have to buy storage modules from another arch)would no longer be able to make medium harvesters which function just as effectively as those which a Master Architect could craft.

  2. structure repair kits which...

    • have varying quality dependant upon the skill of the crafter, the degree of experimentation and the quality of the materials used
    • cost 50-100 resources to make but cover 500-1500 credits worth of damage on a structure
      can* be used as an alternate to credits when it comes to paying "rent" on a structure (by the word "can" I mean that this would be a choice on the part of the structure owners, not a requirement)
    • provide some temporary bonus to a structure's operation (harvesters would harvest 50% density resources as if they were 55% for the duration of the credit covered or the structure would consume power less rapidly, etc, etc)

  3. more functional furniture (Right now, the only functioning furniture we have are crafting stations.)

    • For example, armoires should be able to hold clothing and clothing in the armoire should not count against the structure's item limit.

  4. more furniture customization and schematics

    • we need the ability to actually tailor furniture to individuals' tastes. If you as an architect don't wish to be bothered with requests for taupe versus mauve couches, then you as an individual should feel free to tell people you're not an interior decorator. In the meantime, furniture variety should be available as an option for those who are interested in exploring that venue more fully.
      more schematics.. pretty self explanatory.. I'm still puzzled in the extreme that there are so many more plant and furniture varieties ingame than we architects can craft. This needs to be corrected.

  5. structures which can be used in factional warfare. (Yes, I saved the best for last.)

    • fortresses: armorcrafters (for armoring of walls), weaponsmiths (for arming of walls), tailors (for banners and such), merchants (for creating distrubution centers/vendors within the fortress which can be used by medics/chefs supplying facility once it is up), droid engineer (for supplying automation of fortress repair process) and finally the architects which would be bringing all these product together in creating semi-static structures that are effectively Star Wars fortresses which can be operated by Squad Leaders in large-scale battles against other players.
    • portions of camps: rangers should have options which are provided by architects to truly upgrade their camps to the point that they function as cantinas in allowing even novice entertainers to heal battlefatique (droids should be able to allow elite entertainers to heal battlefatique in camps).
    • turret-mounts and watch towers: architects should provide structures which can have guns (supplied by weaponsmiths) mounted on them and watch towers which allow people to view enemy actions from a distance without exposing themselves to danger


If we had all five of the above idea implemented, the following would result:



  • people would consider buying master architect crafted products over that of some newb architect who is only going to be in the business till he makes 10 of each harvester for himself.
  • architects would be free to sell their harvesters and houses for three credits per resource use because the more harvesters on the market being maintained, the more people who will want to buy repair kits which should be a significant source of income for an architect.
  • architects would be a less simple and more enjoyableprofession
  • architects would be valued as something other than someone who might become an Urban Planner
  • etc etc

Thanks for reading, please comment if you agree or disagree with this post being something you'd like to see dev commentary on... or just post if you agree or disagree with the idea.


Delai - lowca



Branix
Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:10 pm
#2

I do not have a constructive response to your post, however, I think your screenshots rock. Thanks for sharing them.





Branix of Naboo
SeaSide Resort 3412 6827
NW of Kaadara
Vendors at 3508 6715
Love_Jones
Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:37 pm
#3
very nice craftmenship



-----------------------------------------------
HEY DOODS, NEONE KNOE TEH NEEKID M@RIO CH3@T!)!^!(%&)!!_
jlbrownos
Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:57 pm
#4

I would like to add some ideas to this thread that I wrote a couple of days ago and never got around to posting. Some of them are similar to the ideas of the original poster, but there are some new ideas and interesting variations, too. Btw, I like the idea of using light-yellow font to seperate outimportant parts of the text, soI'm theiving it.Anyway, here goes:


I'm afraid that I'm beginning to think that the sheer number of architects is going to make this profession relatively difficult to balance. What seems to be needed is to remove some of the competition on structures.This could be done in many ways, and simply leaving things as they are until people get disgusted and leave either the profession or the game would be a solution (I have read some posts mentioning this). But it wouldn't be a very good one, because it would upset a lot of people. Imagine if the developer's solution to the problems with the commando class had simply been to ignore the profession so that people would move to something else. This might be a slightly different situation, but it is comparable in one way - both examples would solve the problem, and with little effort. It could be agrued that the commando class was almost completely useless, while architects do still have some use, but in time the market will become so saturated that our goods will be with almost no value. An important realization is that our ability to create valueable products is like the commando's ability to be effective in combat. Just as a pre-fix commando could fight, but wouldn't be very successful at killing opponents, we can still craft goods, but we won't be very successful at selling them for a reasonable price.


Since there are a lot of people in architect and a lot of people drawn to it, and since causing many of those people to leave the field isn't really a good solution, the most obvious conclusion is more demand must be created for what each architect is making. Decay would increase the demand, and probably is a nessecary step, but in order to support the current number of architects, decay would have to be so rapid that it would be completely unreasonable.


I have heard the idea of allowing a deed to be used for about 1.5-2.5x it's value (although such value would be somewhathard to determine) in maintenance for an already placed structure, which would work, especially if maintence costs were increased. This seems like an excellent solution, and since money would have to go to the harvesters to build new deeds, a money sink would still exist. If the base maintence costs were raised, it would force people to use new deeds, but because the value of the deed is increased by a multiplier to determine the given maintence, most of the time people would pay about the same or less than they do now, and no decay would be nessecary. Furniture would need to be taken care of as well, but in a way that didn't require replacing every piece in a house at regular intervals. Perhaps some decay could be used, but since only a small amount of people would probably want to do furniture full-time (see next paragraph), it could be relatively slow.


Another (not necessarily self-inclusive) solution would be to cause all these people going into architect to make different types of goods. If you want to make houses, then once you get buildings IV, you can go into an advanced profession with all kinds of new house options. This could includeoptions like custom coloring/material textures for building surfaces (ie walls, exteriors, floor), new floorplans, or the ability to have built-in storage that could be accessed from any bank. The same could easily be done for installations and furniture. This could include new and betterharvesters and mining abilitieslikeplacing harvesters onrough terrain or gettingconcentration bonuses for your harvesters. Furniture could include things like custom-coloring or functional furniture like bank or bazaar access terminals or improved crafting stations with various benefits(thebazaar terminalcouldhave a higher level version thatallows you to retrieve purchaseditems from any city on the planet). Since these getting to and advancing inthese elite classes would consume many skill points, if moreare not increased at some future point thenthe basic architect class could be made to require fewer skill points, or not. The items from the advanced fields could be much better than the existing ones, but cost significantly more maintenance so that the current items would still have a market.


Experimentation could be turned into something more useful as well, and could decrease maintance costs or lot size (which could now be based on a decimal system i.e. small houses take up anywhere from 1.2 to 2.8 lots) or a number of other attributes like storage space. This would really add a lot to the profession in several ways. First, it would make crafting more interesting, because each product could actually be unique and creating them would be a more involved process than gathering just any quality of materials to make exactly the same end product. Secondly, it would allow people to create products based on different markets, based on whether a customer wants price or quality. And finally, experimentation would actually distinguish between the masters and the novices and dabblers.


And to add a completely different source of income, advanced crafting missions could be implemented. The current artisan missions are just glorified deliveries because of the low payout, and they don't take elite skills into account. Architects (as well as other elite crafters) could build advanced schematics that required specific amounts of certain resources, had to be experimented to certain minimum attributes, and could require parts from other professions. You would be able to do the mission yourself and have to spend much more time on it, or you could share it with other crafters to help get resources and make parts quickly, which would parallel solo vs. group combat missions. Such missions could pay as much as high level combat missions (ie more than 20k) in some cases, but would require more specific resources, higher attributes, and more parts and resources as the payout increased (but would still be doable in a reasonable time frame like 2-3 hours in order to be in-line with combat mission payouts and would compensate extra for the loss of resources). Having these missions would mean that some elite crafters could make money through other venues besides relying on combat classes for income, which would mean less people desperately trying to make money through selling structures.


I don't really expect any of this to happen. But if I present the ideas, when the developers decide to fix this problem then maybe people will be able to give them some of these ideas as feedback. And if I keep them to myself, I know they won't get looked at.

Delai
Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:27 pm
#5

Thanks for the responses.




jlbrownos wrote:

I'm afraid that I'm beginning to think that the sheer number of architects is going to make this profession relatively difficult to balance.What seems to be needed is to remove some of the competition on structures.


Let me point out here that the only reason there are a huge number of architects is because the profession is riddled with part-timers and temps who don'tcare for the profession but just hope to avoid spending credits early in their career as a weaponsmith.


If the quality of the end-product is not dependant upon Architects' construction line, procurement of quality resources and taking the time needed to experiment then we'll always have an overabundance of architects. Even if they're only 0/0/3/1 in the Architect tree with a Mastery in Weaponsmithing.


If anArchitect had topursue the construction line and had to ensure that all of theresources usedin the combines were at least 500 unit toughness to produce aproduct that someone would use, the number of people who wouldmakepurchasesfrom the part-time architects hawking theirmedium harvesters for 20kwould drop drastically. Simply put, people would be unwilling to risk 20k in purchasing a harvester which would not perform as well as the one that a Master Architect is selling for 50k.








Since there are a lot of people in architect and a lot of people drawn to it, and since causing many of those people to leave the field isn't really a good solution, the most obvious conclusion is more demand must be created for what each architect is making. Decay would increase the demand, and probably is a nessecary step, but in order to support the current number of architects, decay would have to be so rapid that it would be completely unreasonable.






But decay already exists! Go to your harvester and pay the rent or it will stop working. What architects need is an alternate means of allowing people to prevent decay.


Repair kits which hold the harvesters over for a day but can be sold for a profit by architects. Imagine a repair kit which takes us 50 units of resources to make but pays the rent of 1500 credits. We could place it on the bazaar for 750, or in crates of 10 for 7500 and people would buy the repair kitsand still manage tosave money.







Experimentation could be turned into something more useful as well, and could decrease maintance costs or lot size






Yes, it desperately needs to do something. At minimim, the Construction line should be turned into a Salvage line which causes the architect to salvage resources when they critical fail on an item.







And to add a completely different source of income, advanced crafting missions could be implemented.






Agreed. I have 24 very needed skill credits tied into marksman now just so I can do artisan missions for the highest possible payout.







I don't really expect any of this to happen. But if I present the ideas, when the developers decide to fix this problem then maybe people will be able to give them some of these ideas as feedback. And if I keep them to myself, I know they won't get looked at.






Same. In fact, I suspect that I'll be cancelling my subscription within the month. I bought the game to be an architect. Rather I'm forced to either be an interior decorator or a glorified miner bypart-timer architects. My husband bought the game to be a droid engineer. He's even less happy. All around disappointment in a game that looked truly promising in terms of crafting. Unfortunately, the combat has proven to be dull to both of us.

Ranx_Sedusa
Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:43 pm
#6
Im not an Architect, nor will i become a part-timer. But i would like to comment on a couple of really good ideas.

1. definatley they need to impliment color/texture customation. I dont even own a house right now, and when i do finally get around to it, im NOT going to be putting any furniture in it, because i have not seen anything i really like, now give me post modern black leather&glass and concrete/stainless steel/gothic decor and im wasting Ks of creds.

2. having a bank and bazaar term in-house would be awesome. im not buying a personal crafting station until someone can tell me why it is better than my droid. and i have heard two apposing arguments, and no one has been convincing enough (or the benefit) to put out money on a private station. but a bank/bazaar terminal inhouse would make me consider placing an expensive house, placing some stations in a room upstairs or in the back, and even placing some furniture to make it homey.


btw Delia... i enjoy reading your posts. consise and thoughtful.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raanx Sedussa -CoreTech PA -Kor Vella, Corellia -STARSIDER
Master Markman, Future Bounty Hunter

Isa (previously Vru of SDS PA) -Theed Naboo -BRIA
Future AS, WS and DE (i will never surcome to the lure of the CH)
AS and WS to support my DE habit
Luzenit
Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:24 am
#7

I am in complete agreement re: the flood of novice archs that are out to move up installations. I feel the problem must be addressed earlier on in the profession. Make it skill point intensive and painful (not unlike weaponsmith)


Due to the sheer quantity of resources invloved in structures, I do not want to have to deal (risk) with 'experimentation' for better products. Sure, this may disappoint the temporary architects, but it also hurts the devoted ones. A critical failure on a heavy is no fun as it is, but now I would have to deal with a experimental critical failure? The alternative is plain to see. Make the construction line a pre-req to building heavies! Could you imagine the cries of dispair when the temps realize they must go at least 0-4-4-1 to play miner/part-time arch making (or even using) heavies? So, you want to be an architect eh? Pony up those skill points I say! The commitment of more precious skill points (in a seemingly worthless branch) will definitely make the newbies reconsider earlier on. I can even think of another restriction - if you DO NOT have the artisan skill (15 skill pts) trained, you CANNOT use any mining device over personal harvester. This will stop the guild backed archs from using 100 lots from their fighter buddies to place larges down. I read enough on this board to know the yahoos that do it and BRAG about it and their undercutting methods to crush the market.


I don't want to see repair kits or decay get into the picture at all if we still are paying maintenance fees to the SOE money sink.


The artisan missions should not be weapon skilldependent! It is so laughable that it is! I am a master architect and get crappola missions and my ranger/surveyor partner get ones so much better and he is NOT a crafter. That is an obvious problem the power-that-be need to address.


I would dearly love to color furniture, and add color hues to houses. Sadly, I read some where on this board that it it too difficult for the Devs to do. I would like to see patches come in that allow more house and furniture schematics. They could retire some too.





Kazara____ Weaponsmith___Master Commando____


"Imperial Gal of Fiery Pwnage"


[KAZ]mart Theed -5171, 3385:::::::::Mission Market Restuss 5444, 6370



Delai
Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:49 am
#8

Very well said, Luzenit. I can only assume that the person who one-starred your post is someone who is either a temp architect already or is planning on being one. I agree completely, if an architect wants to make good installations (our only truly useful product line), they should be required to spend more skill credits than they currently are required to spend now. I wish they'd have the stuff required to voice their objections.






Luzenit wrote:

Due to the sheer quantity of resources invloved in structures, I do not want to have to deal (risk) with 'experimentation' for better products. Sure, this may disappoint the temporary architects, but it also hurts the devoted ones. A critical failure on a heavy is no fun as it is, but now I would have to deal with a experimental critical failure?






Or make the experimentation salvage resources from the product and especially the critical fails. Imagine critical failing on the combine of a medium harvester, but because you have construction 3, you salvage two walls.


Imagine being a Master Architect and successfully combining the individual components of a GuildHalland instead of spending 40,000 units of ore into it. You only spend 20,000 because of your experimenation.







I don't want to see repair kits or decay get into the picture at all if we still are paying maintenance fees to the SOE money sink.






Again, let me point out that I'm suggesting that the repair kits be an alternative to money. So a player could go to their harvester and do one of the following:





    • drop 1500 credits into the harvester, drop 1500 power into the harvester


    • drop 1 repair kit worth 1500 worth of coverage into the harvester, drop1500 power into the harvester

The person dropping the repair kit and powerwould get the same amount of coverage as the person paying just credits and power into the harvester. But the person using the repair kit would also get the benefit of their harvester mining a 50% density source of goods as if it was a 55% density source of goods for the duration of the repair kit.

Dayln
Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:55 am
#9

Although I disagree with so much that is being said in this thread,I will agree with you on one thing, and it is your main point I believe.


It is much much to easy to become an architect, they should greatly up the XP requirments.


( and no I didnt one star his post )

Nyca
Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:38 pm
#10

In a way I was a part-time architect. I had every intention of going to master but for many reasons gave up 2 boxes shy of it. Before I did however I made sure I had 3 houses, 2 factories, and 20 various harvesters in the bank. I also had 2 backpacks full of furniture and about 200k in resources, as well as 200k in credits.


The reason I left as far as architure was directly concerned was the inability to distinquish myself except by price. No quality parameters, no experimentation meant that I would always be compared to the lowest cost provider on the server. A few folks paid up for good service and fast delivery but more often than not it was a "jack sells them cheaper" kinda thing.


As I progessed I stopped making small houses, to cut myself off from novices, this works for a time until you hit master and exp is no longer important, and its all about the credits.


Experimation is a good thing, it gives those that are motivated the opportunity to distinguish themselves. If youre worried about failures, how about experimentation on the smaller parts that make up a house, a medium house takes 5 walls, each wall is made up of 10 structure peices, each structure is 200 ore and 50 metal, have the experimentation work on these. If you get a bad one, you havent lost much, but you can save all your amazing ones and use that to build a house that takes less lots, gives more storage, costs less maintance ect.


Quality of materials is a good thing also. By using higher end resources, novices arent going to be taking away your sales as they will tend to grab junk stuff and use practice mode to get the exp. Architects can then have a range of quality, and allow folks a choice of price levels.


Making decay on houses is going to backfire, in my opinion. They are luxuries to all but shop owners for the most part, and more and more we are seeing several shop owners sharing houses or pa halls to sell their wares now, make things more expensive and combat types wont own a house, and shop owners will be forced to share.


Anyway you look at it, architectural products grab a huge percentage of the credits spent on a server. For artisans you might see several harvesters, a couple of factories, a shop, and maybe a house as well, for combat types probably a house for storage and everyone that owns a house will be buying furniture as well.


Although architects dont get any of it, maintance on all structures is a major expense that is associated with owning them, make the cost of owning something higher and less folks will buy them, or upgrade to bigger structures.


Here are a couple suggestions I think make some sense in helping the profession:


1) More floor plans at higher levels


2) Less maintance on larger machines, encourage folks to step up to higher level stuff by having it cost less to use.


3) Quality and Experimenation - give the customer a reason to buy from you vs. your competition, better exp = more storage, less maintance, less lots, ect.


Nyca

GIANTFAN
Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:42 pm
#11

Fantastic Thread folks!!!! I love all the ideas being brought up here. I hope the dev's monitor this one since there is a ton of constructive feedback coming out of this one.


I'm in the midst of moving up the ladder to becoming an architect and the info here was very enlightening.


Keep it coming!! Thanks,



Regards,



Giantfan


playing on Shadowfire, living on Talus.............yes Talus...........I like the quiet!

Delai
Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:32 pm
#12




Nyca wrote:

In a way I was a part-time architect. I had every intention of going to master but for many reasons gave up 2 boxes shy of it. Before I did however I made sure I had 3 houses, 2 factories, and 20 various harvesters in the bank. I also had 2 backpacks full of furniture and about 200k in resources, as well as 200k in credits.



Nod. I don't blame anyone for deciding to becomeor just becoming a part-timer. It'sa verysmart option to choose. Personally, I'm just quitting the game (sub expires on Oct 7th). I wanted to have fun being an architect, not a glorified miner or a part-time architect/full-time weaponsmith.


Anyway, I figured I'd leave my criticisms here just on the off chance that it will make a difference for those who continue to play. Make of them what you will.

Delai
Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:08 am
#13




Dayln wrote:

Although I disagree with so much that is being said in this thread,I will agree with you on one thing, and it is your main point I believe.


It is much much to easy to become an architect, they should greatly up the XP requirments.


( and no I didnt one star his post )






Hehehe, didn't think you would. I've seen you saying something about architect being too easy.



What parts do you disagree with? I can guess but would rather actually see the arguments. =)

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