Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Something to think about: Why melee prevails...
Page 1 of 1
dsurfman
Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:18 pm
#1
I have noticed on other forums there is a real debate as to why melee are better professions. And why they are the "tanks" and PvP professions and why ranged doesnt stand a chance...
We WS no the answer but rarely ever think about it...
After one year of WSing. ALL my stock of melee resources used to build melee weapons are capped out on their required stats...
50k stack of Kammaris at 1000
100k Stack of Duralloy Steel 1000
UT on dolovite capped
UT on neutronum capped
UT on ditanium capped...
This isnt the case for my ranged weapons...Plus the cap on the UT and SR for range is MUCH higher than say the cap for COND for most of our ranged weapons...
Just a thought...
SeaRaptor
Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:18 pm
#2
Melee weapons are less strenuous on resource requirements, thus easier to craft. They require fewer subcomponents. They can be manufactured in bulk far faster than firearms. Thus, they sell cheaper. They are easier to hit the speed cap with (other than Rifles).
It's no wonderthe melee classes are "stronger" than the ranged ones.
FoeHammerOne
Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:15 pm
#3
I disagree for several reasons, melee fighters have a lot of advantages over ranged professions.
1. Melee have more state/melee/ranged defense/toughness.
2. Center of Being.
3. Current State of Armor allows all except one ranged weapon (Jawa Ion) to be mitigated by 90%.
4. Jedi completely wreck ranged professions, combine that with the Jedi population and ranged professions are pretty worthless in PvP. At least Melee people can take more than 3 hits from a Dervish2.
But pretty much ranged vs. melee, Armor is the biggest factor. Ranged professions have higher damage weapons and higher damage multipliers on their specials.
1. Melee have more state/melee/ranged defense/toughness.
2. Center of Being.
3. Current State of Armor allows all except one ranged weapon (Jawa Ion) to be mitigated by 90%.
4. Jedi completely wreck ranged professions, combine that with the Jedi population and ranged professions are pretty worthless in PvP. At least Melee people can take more than 3 hits from a Dervish2.
But pretty much ranged vs. melee, Armor is the biggest factor. Ranged professions have higher damage weapons and higher damage multipliers on their specials.
Terv
Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:21 pm
#4
I've been ranged and I'm now totally melee, I have no idea why i didn't do this before. The added bonus of melee profs are far greater than the ranged ones. The D's, the dmg, and the combat system as it is. The ranged can't really even sit at the same table as the melee profs. Just Master Brawler is such an advantage it's not even funny. I hope the CU will change this...so I can go back to ranged. I feel Star Wars was more ranged based, and that's why I was trying not to go totally melee. BUt i had to give in after so many clones...lol.
P__Day
Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:41 pm
#5
FoeHammerOne wrote:
I disagree for several reasons, melee fighters have a lot of advantages over ranged professions.
1. Melee have more state/melee/ranged defense/toughness.
2. Center of Being.
3. Current State of Armor allows all except one ranged weapon (Jawa Ion) to be mitigated by 90%.
4. Jedi completely wreck ranged professions, combine that with the Jedi population and ranged professions are pretty worthless in PvP. At least Melee people can take more than 3 hits from a Dervish2.
But pretty much ranged vs. melee, Armor is the biggest factor. Ranged professions have higher damage weapons and higher damage multipliers on their specials.
Well for one, i use my t21 in PvP most of the time, the jawa unless its a 400+ one cant really hurt anyone in a 40% stun suit, with a 50+ stun PSG, while the T21 tears through most armor pretty well, besides, last time i checked my PvP suit is 90% for : Kinetic, Electricity and blast 40% stun 90%energy, so its equally hard ot get damage through for both ranged and melee.
Secondly melee gets COB, which i belive should be taken out, since it now is overpowering when you see every melee fighter running a COB macro, the ability to intimidate so your opponent does 50% or less damage pr hit,. no melee is really overpowered if you look at it without stacking of state def and melee and ranged def, a m.fencer alone cant deal enough damage without a hihg damage acklay baton, but with 2-0-4-0 pistol in his tempalte you cant knock him down, and you sure as h-e-l-l cant state him, and if you add 4-4-4-0 fencer to a m.swordsman/brawler you get a template which has insane defences and can deal damage.
Jedi ranged block is a different topic all together, the block is there, but no armor, so with no ranged block a jedi would be dead teh second a ranged proffesion started shooting, no mitigation, no other secondary defence than block, make jedi dead ducks vs both ranged and melee, but im sure most jedi would not have a problem with lower ranged block if there was the same block for melee attacks. But we will see what happens in the CU, lets not forget a jedi template takes 3 months to grind, and require alot more xp than any other template in the game
ana-mo-cara
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:19 pm
#6
The problem was actually generated a long time ago. In the beginning the melee classes were increadibly balanced. So what changed. Melee classes decided they wanted to be ranged classes and pushed for it. A production change was made favoring melees. They absolutely loved the idiot that pushed for this by the way, and bam.
This is how the prototype tank was. He had his evasions back then. Though he was different in that he was not a damage dealer. He was a true tank. He held up a target while the power classes ranged took up positions and blasted away. The tank was taken care of by medics and the tank lead the group into battle. He was literally a tank and held a target or two at bay giveing the ranged the breathing room.
Then came the dark times melees managed to push through damage increases to their professions. Guys that used to hit for modest gain. Which was fair since they dodged alot. Managed to get huge damage bonuses, and at the same time many strong ranged attacks were nerfed. Leaveing melees with about the only working knockdown for one.
So now you have a class doing ranged damage, and getting the tank mitigations. Result The damage output of ranged and melee are even. Melee get evasions that ranged fighters do not really have. Ergo the professions cannot trade up with eachother attack for attack.
It has nothing to do with the weapons or the armors. It has to do with the evasion mods that melees get, and quite frankly hopefully in the curb the devs will force melee players to make a choice. If they want damage as melee they need to choose 2 melee professions made for that. If they want the evastions they have to choose two of the melee professions made for that. Then put in place percentile caps, and equipment minuses. Say a TKA takes out a pike to deal the damage. He will find that his evasions take a huge hit for it. Which is as it should be if your swinging a power hammer. You should not be dodgeing the attacks.
This would satisfy most everyone. Along with makeing the evasions more reasonable. Right now they are just way too high to boot, and need a real reduction. When I see a TKM buffed holding a Tusken observer at bay. While I as a MBH spending twice the points am wasted by the observer in fifteen seconds that proves to me the mitigations are way too good.
It all boils down to inbalanced mods. Too much damage dealing, and too strong of an evasion presence in alot of melee.
CTRL_ALT
Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:02 am
#7
Melee defense is much better, Melee Mitigation is a main reason for the ability to "tank." Weapons are alot easier to build too.
Terv
Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:09 pm
#8
in short..
yup, not really the weapons it he mods from the templates you can make up
giffordgekko
Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:18 pm
#9
i am a carbineer - im not being cocky or showing off - but i can stop a melee fighter getting close enough to hitting me most of the time , even if i get supprised i can pixie it with some 50-60 fill vercupti(buffed up thats over 5k health), enough time to get a dizzy and a knockdown, so i think ranged isnt dead at all 
its certainly more enjoyable 
its certainly more enjoyable ranged weapons are going to nicely benefit with the newkrayt bloom 
ana-mo-cara
Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:44 pm
#10
Yeah but you are reliant on uber buffing to do that, and just roll the dice till you get a stick. On a dizzy knockdown. Its not impossible to beat a melee, but you really have to fall back on some arcane attacks to do it. Like the FKD, or area disease and poison. Then again you have to deal with the melee knockdown from hell. Thirty meters out bam knockdown.
My favorite one of all time was fighting one of these melee stackers with three other people, and I had sprayshotted him, and then I hit the fkd about 20 times before it finally stuck. To which he sent a tell crying foul. Saying I cheated by useing knockdown. Even though it was six on one, and we ranged fighters had each suffered a double clone. All the while he was laughing at us. This guy lacked any skill aswell, and it was obvious which really ticked us off.
Ofcoarse when the devs stealth fixed the sprayshot I was happy being able to reduce that mitigation. Still couldnt handle a buffed melee, but when both of us were not buffed. I got the satisfaction of the shock on their eyes. Especially the night I started picking fights with noob TKMs in mos eisley. They let me have everything I wanted the starting range, and everything, and I popped them with the sprayshot out of the box. and was able to kite about useing burns to wear them down. I had the advantage of haveing atleast a year on most of them otherwise I doubt a noob MBH would win.
The problem is its still kind of cheap sticking a sprayshot. Seeing as its a defacto stick. It always sticks.
Yes any ranged fighter can beat a melee stacker. Its just that the melee fighter is playing tic tac toe. While the ranged fighter is planning a napoleonic campaign. Okay this is the chain of commands. We all know with a little persistence a novice marksman can kill a krayt dragon. It may take six hours of nerve wracking but it can be done. Dosent mean its equal. I find when I am fighting a melee I am permitted like no mistakes, and I must have a very calculated plan. Its different for melees since I see them use the same move over and over.
Comeon curb.
SlaserX
Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:48 pm
#11
To be honest, I believe I know why melee prevails. Not just from a weaponsmith stand point of view, but from a fighter.
Melee professions have defense against melee attacks
Ranged professions have defense against ranged attacks
When you engague an enemy, How long does the shooting last before it switches to melee? Not too long. Melee gets the defense against the melee, therefore, melee is a better choice in the longrun. Ranged attackers will have a chance by running, but then you get your accuracy nerfed. I think that pretty much sums up PvM melee vs ranged As for PvP... it's because TKs can dizzy/kd at almost if not 100%.
As for PvP... it's because TKs can dizzy/kd at almost if not 100%.
Page 1 of 1