Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: The forgotten gun...
Honestly only pikemen have more misses than this gun (and even they got a fix).
Misses are only part of the problem here. The 48m range on this gun is simply a joke and add to that the insult of a -80 mod at that range and you can see why pistoleers are getting such a pasting in PvP.
With the incredibly popular Jawa Ion, the choice of the FOTM rfile/fencer templates out there right now, we can see such a sharp focus between the 2 weapons.
For a start the Jawa Ion has 64m range (fair enough it's a rifle) and is pretty accurate at the ideal range. At ideal it has a + mod and even at PB ismore likely to hit your target as the Tangle is at 48m.
Secondly the Jawa Ion is AP1 and so negates some of the stun protection layers found in a lot of composite nowadays.
-10, Ideal (10m)
-80, Max (48m)
Jawa Ion Rifle
+12, Ideal (40m)
-80, max (64m)
Now take into account the speed/accuracy mods that the master sharpshooter gets compared to the master gunfighter, along with the AP rating and extra range afforded by the rifle, and then apply 35% damage slices to both those weapons.
Instead I read about the new Genosian Sonic blaster. Once again a stun weapon, but having seen screenies I find that it has the SAME low damage/high speed albeit better range mods, and ALSO requires rare loot items.
The tangle sucks for a good reason.
It cuts through 90% of the armor out there like butta'.
Jawa Ion on the otherhand, was balanced with the idea of a 3x damage multiplier on the shooter. With that gone, there are no disadvantages of using it against armored opponents. If anything the Jawa Ion is overpowered in the current scheme of things.
-Strife- wrote:
The tangle sucks for a good reason.
It cuts through 90% of the armor out there like butta'.
Jawa Ion on the otherhand, was balanced with the idea of a 3x damage multiplier on the shooter. With that gone, there are no disadvantages of using it against armored opponents. If anything the Jawa Ion is overpowered in the current scheme of things.
Wait. The Tangle sucks for good reason...?
What the hell does that mean? Does it mean that riflemen deserve a more accurate, armour-piercing, longer range stun weapon that is higher powered? I think an awful lot of pistoleers out there would disagree with you.
You criticise the tangle but then say the jawa ion is overpowered: excuse me but that's contradicting your own post in less thanthe space of afew sentences.
I'm no rifleman and have no intention of grinding to get there. However, a master headshot with an average Jawa ion from ideal rangeagainst me in my 33% stun layered helmet STILL hits me for 300+ damage after my mitigation is taken into account, and hits so much more accurately. On the other hand I fire backat my attacker (if I'm still standing)with my tangle using stopping shot: the delay caused by this alone means I get off only one shot to 3 of his, and that 3/5 times I'll still miss them. If the target has stun layered comp 30%+ of my damage is absorbed and if the target has mitigation my low min dmg means he gets hurt even less.
Here is the most absurd part: If he opens up on me from more than 48m (which most riflemen will) I need to close range while my blue bar takes a dive. This does not occur with any other gun so why is the Tangle the exception?
The tangle deals with armor that same as any other weapon. If the armor has no resist to it then of course it goes though. The answer to that would be...
WerrtZer wrote:
If the target has stun layered comp 30%+ of my damage is absorbed and if the target has mitigation my low min dmg means he gets hurt even less.
Jedi_Titus wrote:
The tangle deals with armor that same as any other weapon. If the armor has no resist to it then of course it goes though. The answer to that would be...
WerrtZer wrote:
If the target has stun layered comp 30%+ of my damage is absorbed and if the target has mitigation my low min dmg means he gets hurt even less.
Also the tangle is not armor piercing. Stun damage is simply another type of damage just like heat, or energy, or kinetic or..... It can be protected against the same as any other danage type. There is no reason why the tangleshould be any worse than any other weapon.
Wait, I'm confused here: are you backing my statement or disagreeing with it or what?
I know the Tangle has no AP rating. I am talking about the Jawa's AP1 capabilities, while combined with it's superior range mods, and the better DPS. Stun layered armour is still cut through by the Jawa Ion, and since stun layers can be gotten no higher than 40% (while incurring huge encumbrance penalties) the AP1 negates 25% (?) of that protection.
This is not a level playing field...
The preceding were just examples, now for the argument itself.....
The Tangle Pistol : Stun damage
Advantages : Stun damage, every suit of armor out there has a vulnerability to stun, unless the armor crafter intentionally adds a stun protection layer. Even then the protections are relatively low. A pistol, like most, has ranges geared towards the point blank to near ranges. 1x mellee damage multiplier, allowing reasonable survivability in a mellee confrontation. Low HAM.
Disadvantages : Extremely low max damage, with a wide damage spread. Slow speed.Difficult to enhance via +20-40 feed mechanisms. Innacurate at long ranges.
The Tangle Pistol - When your opponent was wearing composite, and your standard gun wasn't cuttingthrough it, Your choice was to either suck it up and hope you win or change tactics. One of them was to switch to the tangle pistol in the hopes that you could cause many small direct hits, rather than many large significantly resisted hits. It worked until people figured out how to counter it withstun layers and properly shifted PSG's
The Jawa Ion Rifle: Stun damage
Advantages: Stun damage along with AP2, as long as your target stayed far enough away you would be able to shoot and kill, until your mind ran out. Reasonably tight damage spread, with a moderate speed for a rifle.
Disadvantages: Medium HAM costs. Inherent with most rifle specials, a significant HAM multiplier with the use of specials. Unbuffed/spiced mind costs add up quickly. A 3x damage mellee multiplier, if you were being hit in mellee, you will die - quickly. Has the Ranges of most rifles. As with all rifleman, you get a knockdown, but nothing else in PvP. Your tactics are limited to shootand/or run.
The Jawa Ion Rifle at range is a excellent weapon to counter armored opponents. But if you were fighting a ranged opponent they got shots in against you as long as you are able to shoot them (64m). As your opponent got closer they become more accurate, while you become increasingly inaacurate. If they don't die before closing, your must withdraw, switch weapons, or continue firing hoping you still hit the guy. If fighting a mellee opponent, you *must* kill them before they can reach you, otherwise the 3x damage multiplier will be to costly at mellee ranges.
Now, in todays game of no more multipliers, the above arguments are mostly invalid. But as I had said earlier, the reason why the guns are they way there are, is that they were balanced with a different combat system in mind.
There is a "combat revamp" going on now. To reflect the changes in the system.
I've typed to much and already grown bored with this, just trying to state my justifications for my earlier post. You can agree to disagree, It's only my opinion.
Message Edited by Dynastar on 02-17-2004 03:10 PM