Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: weapon variety (or the current lack of it.)
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Sylow
Fri May 27, 2005 6:54 am
#1
I still wonder if the people of the armour and weapons department ever spoke with each other. With the CU they finally managed to get a variety of armours into the game, it's not all-composite any more.
At the same time with the level system they managed to completely destroy a big portion of the weapons available... i assume the suggestion is quite late, i don't think that SOE is ready to revamp the WS profession for this, but i thought i'd at least bring it up here.
Actually i have two ideas on how to do things, one is quite easy and would lead to a big variety of useable weapons, but the different ressource requirements would probably lead to only a limited selection of weapons used again.
The easy way would be, that all weapons simply are first certified at lv. 54. This also means, that all weapons should have the same properties when made with adequate materials and experimented the same way.
(I will reduce my explanation now to ranged weapons, but melee should not be different in the actual systematics.)
Weapons, barrels and power handlers/feed mechanisms would have a new line of experimentation added, something like "easy handling" or anything like that.
Each point of experimentation then would decrease the required level of the gun by 2 levels. That way a 10pt WS could experiment each gun he creates down to a requirement of lv.1 and has a very limited number of experimentation points left for other properties. (He could experiment power handlers and barrels to -20 each, so if he experiments his gun to a -14, 7 points used, he would have 3 points left for other experimentation... a 12 pt weaponsmith would have 9 points to experiment on the gun still, according to this.)
On the other hand, a very powerful weapon will require all experimentation points being put in other lines, so no experimentation is done on the level. This way, the very powerful weapon will have a requirement of lv. 54.
Weapons for levels in between 1 and 54 will automatically scale themselves, it will simply be the balance between damage and lv. required, the lower the level of the gun, the more experimentation points invested there, the less damage output.
Advantages of this concept:
- very easy to implement
- all kinds of weapons can be made to be a very effective gun
- keeping the "special" properties like elemental damage or other feats (like different max. range) gives people a reason to have a variety of weapons available.
- very easy to implement
- all kinds of weapons can be made to be a very effective gun
- keeping the "special" properties like elemental damage or other feats (like different max. range) gives people a reason to have a variety of weapons available.
Disadvantages:
- different ressource requirements, especially for loot components, will make people prefer the weapons which require little of those components. (Why put 5 krayt tissues into a gun, if you can make one with similar damage and all with only 1 krayt tissue?)
- low level weaponsmiths will only be able to make high level weapons. (This actually is a little issue in my eyes as i think that also currently low level weaponsmiths sell little to nothing. Who wants a low-quality gun, when he can get the same weapon in much better state from a Master WS?)
- different ressource requirements, especially for loot components, will make people prefer the weapons which require little of those components. (Why put 5 krayt tissues into a gun, if you can make one with similar damage and all with only 1 krayt tissue?)
- low level weaponsmiths will only be able to make high level weapons. (This actually is a little issue in my eyes as i think that also currently low level weaponsmiths sell little to nothing. Who wants a low-quality gun, when he can get the same weapon in much better state from a Master WS?)
The second concept is a bit more complex.
First the WS has to create a "weapon core". The current weapon schematics would be converted to those layouts, they would not take the barrel and power handler subcomponents but depending on which type of core is made, they might accept scopes and stocks.
On the second step, the complete weapon would be built by creating the frame. Frames would come in different categories, "basic", "regular" and "advanced" and should be available for melee weapons, kinetic weapons and energy weapons. (Could be that there should be several in the melee department, i know little about the production of melee weapons...)
The basic frames would be certified at novice WS, the others should be certified at higher levels.
The basic energy weapon frame for example would require:
- no ressources. (Those ressources were already used when creating the core.)
- the weapon core
- the barrel (normal or advanced)
- one power handler (normal or advanced)
- no ressources. (Those ressources were already used when creating the core.)
- the weapon core
- the barrel (normal or advanced)
- one power handler (normal or advanced)
On a regular frame, you would have to put two power handlers, on the advanced frame you would have to put three of them. The level system would then work like this, basic frames have a level requirement of 18, regular frames of 36, advanced of 54. When a normal barrel is used, the required level is reduced by 6 points, when a normal power handler is used, the required level is reduced by 11 points.
That way you would have:
- basic frame with normal barrel and normal power handler: lv. 1
- basic frame with advanced barrel and normal power handler: lv. 7
- basic frame with normal barrel and advanced power handler: lv. 12
- basic frame with advanced barrel and advanced power handler: lv. 18
- basic frame with normal barrel and normal power handler: lv. 1
- basic frame with advanced barrel and normal power handler: lv. 7
- basic frame with normal barrel and advanced power handler: lv. 12
- basic frame with advanced barrel and advanced power handler: lv. 18
This line would continue like this with regular and advanced frame so it would be possible to create weapons for different levels easily.
The advantage of this concept is, the core can be flexibly added to the frame, so it is possible to create weapons of different appearance and still competitive properties. (No more "DH17 is junk" and "Advanced Laser Rifle is the best".) This would lead to a much bigger variety of useable weapons.
To make sure that the whole variety is used, just give the coressmall advantages and disadvantages, some cores will only be useable in kinetic frames, others in energy weapon frames, some cores will give elemental damage to the weapon (adding the experimentation line of elemental damage when the frame is built), give a small bonus on maximum range,reduce SAC by 5or modify accuracy a little bit. This would give individuality to the different weapon types while still keeping them all at the same overal level, so many different kinds of weapons would be used by the players. (Remember: variety is good.)
What would you think on the whole matter? It should not throw over the needed ressources again (ressource requirements would still be in the weapons, nothing changing there), the weapons can easily be scaled to the different levels, balance is not in danger and there would be a much bigger variety of weapons in the game. The only drawback would be that the WS has to do one more step in his production which also means, one more factory run. (But even that isa minor issue, give the cores a very little complexity so they take very little time to produce, then the additional factory run also doen't cost a lot of time and the production is not really slowed down...)
Message Edited by Sylow on 05-27-2005 03:57 PM
kiell_amor
Fri May 27, 2005 7:54 am
#2
First off I'd like to say that this is an excellent post with somevery promisingideas - as is human nature it is always easier to destroy than create so a big /salute for this....
Personally of the two I really like the self-regulation of the first idea, very elegant imho! It not only allows us to potentially produce a weapon certified every 2 combat levels (eg. no more huge jumps from CL22 to 40) but alsoallows for every weapon to be availableat each of those levels!Also, with it all contained within the existing experimentation structure it may well be much easier for the devs to code and easier for us to understand than thesecond choice.
My only concern with the idea is that 12pts becomes almost mandatory, as the extra 2 points in handlers, barrels and weapons would make a HUGE difference at the lower levels (more so I feel than currently)... this could probably be gotten around using a sliding-scale in the formula but it'd probably take a while for the devsto sort the kinks out in that!
I dont hold out much hope of this appearing anytime soon, but it may well be a good suggestion for our correspondant to take to the devs for them to consider for the crafter upgrade - its certainly far better than anything they've come up with recently!
Just my 2 cents....
samijx
Fri May 27, 2005 8:03 am
#3
Both Ideas are terriffic! I would recommend a low level weapon cap so that some of the coolest weapons can't be made to level 1, but other than that, I think you're onto something. I do think it would be fun to have basic weapon "skins" and then allow us to work at improving the "internals" of the weapon. (Much like your second idea) Too bad I have little faith in SOE to implement such things. 
Sylow
Fri May 27, 2005 8:05 am
#4
My only concern with the idea is that 12pts becomes almost mandatory, as the extra 2 points in handlers, barrels and weapons would make a HUGE difference at the lower levels (more so I feel than currently)... this could probably be gotten around using a sliding-scale in the formula but it'd probably take a while for the devsto sort the kinks out in that!
The alternative on that would be that level experimentation is done only in the weapon and each point would reduce levels by 6. The level scaling would be much closer to the current scaling and the value of experimentation of components probably would have to be reduced a bit while the experimentation value on the weapon itself would have to be increased a bit for this to work properly.
Anyways, i am aware of the flaws of the concept, i consider it the "easier" way, my second suggestion would avoid all the flaws which i was able to find in my first suggestion, at the cost of somewhat increased complexity. Though, armoursmiths already by now have a very similar system to my second suggestion and we all can see that it works. (With a few quirks still, especially the very high ressource costs and very long factory times, but those can be adjusted / fixed...)
Iwould recommend a low level weapon cap so that some of the coolest weapons can't be made to level 1, but other than that, I think you're onto something.
Nothing easier than that... put the "cores" (or "skins", as you call them.... i think your "skins" is the better word) into basic and advanced cathegories, just like so many other components... and allow frames to only take basic skins while the higher level frames can take all skins.
Message Edited by Sylow on 05-27-2005 05:10 PM
EdOWar
Fri May 27, 2005 11:10 am
#5
These are both good ideas. I especially like being able to experiment on the level requirement, call it 'user friendliness'. Medical supplies used to have a medicine use skill that could be experimented down, so it could be something similar to that.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Veustuh
Fri May 27, 2005 1:42 pm
#6
Sylow wrote:
I still wonder if the people of the armour and weapons department ever spoke with each other. With the CU they finally managed to get a variety of armours into the game, it's not all-composite any more.
Just to clarify:
- RIS still requires a completed quest before being able to be made
- Imperial PSGs cannot be mass produced
- All armor requires one extra "cooking" process which takes an estimated 265 seconds per unit in a factory. Before the CU it would take 3 days to do a run of 1000 segments, still takes as long but layers take as much time and require another 3 days.
- Under the old system an AS could produce around 30 sets of armor with a 1000 run of segments now they're lucky to do 7.
- Faction armor requires the master armorsmith to expend 17k worth of faction to buy these limited schematics to which can not be mass produced nor can the AS avoid the 17k cost even if they are a colonel. (Recall there's a 1.8:1 transfer ratio from Master Smuggler to AS at a cost of around 1.3 million)
- Post-CU it can be hard to sell factional armor since you have to charge your customers around a million a set. In addition, this isn't including the new 15 or so resources an AS must keep on hand and in huge masses (since we can only hold stacks of 100k of resources to which will be burned up rather fast just making 20 suits of armor) it's nearly impossible to keep up with any type of demand.
Overall you have some great ideas to which would be nice if added though keep in mind that you could always get the AS treatment. Asking for additional items could get you more work, time wasted and factory time to which slows down the production of weapons. As it stands now WS is one if not the only elite crafting profession to which has held its ground if not gained some after the CU. A WS can run a crate of APH, AWS, ARB and roll out 20 laser rifles faster than an AS can complete 2 full suits of armor from scratch.
Sylow
Mon May 30, 2005 4:07 am
#7
Some things... first on the whole doubts about the new AS-System, i agree that mass production of armours doesn't work any more the way it did, i agree that the ressource costs seem quite steep and factory times are too high. The last part was, as far as i know, fixed by reducing the complexity of several AS-items. (Actually i think that armoursmiths have to rethink their approach to business. The mass-produced 4-pieces composite outfit is not what the market wants any more. The way of working for an armoursmith will move more towards the business procedures of a tailor, in my eyes. Individual armours with personally given color preferences can't be pre-produced in a factory. There's always a basic demand for mass-produced armour, but i also see more and more people in individually modified armour...)
Anyways, i try to find ways to deal with the problems. I assume that the second of my suggestions has no chance to come true, as the Devs sure don't want to go for a complete Weaponsmith-revamp.
Current issues of my first suggestion would be:
- ressource considerations would dominate the production criterias of weaponsmiths. (Why produce a weapon with high ressource costs if you can build one with similar properties for lower costs?)
- the 12 pt Weaponsmiths would absolutely dominate the lower level market, novice weaponsmiths would be forced to create Lv. 54 weapons of lousy quality.
The first issue can be adressed by giving weapons unique properties. Elemental damage has to matter somewhat in the system (at the moment it seems to have little effect, at least as far as i am able to observe...) and range should be balanced well. For PvE it might seem to be a little issue if your gun has 10 meters less of range, so your last surplus krayt tissue can very well go into such a weapon. If you're going for PvP, you'd rather invest the higher costs of more tissues to have increased range.
Anyways, the second point is an inherent problem of the experimentation system and can't be fixed this way. Thus i came to a third idea, the tried and true concept of loot:
- some new lootable items should be introduced in the game, should be easy to get and have names like "beam focus lens", "recoil amplifier" or "hair trigger assembly".
- all weapon schematics should have a slot for the optional "weapon improvement".
- When a weapon is made without the improvement, it should not affect the production in any way. Thus the current weapon production process is not affected.
- The "weapon improvement" loot parts should have a level set into them and any weapon crafted with such an improvement will have it's level requirement increased to the level of the improvement. (If the requirement is higher on the gun, the gun simply keeps it's level requirement.)
- Weapons which have their level increased by the improvement will have their damage and speed rescaled, so they can compete with other weapons of that level. (Indeed... a DH17 which then is built with a lv. 54 loot part will be a lv. 54 weapon in terms of damage and speed. Shooting range will be of the regular DH17 still...)
- To make the improvements a bit more attractive and give people a reason to also use them in highest level weapons, give them small bonuses. (Nothing big, just some toys, pick one of the following mods at random:accuracy +5, max dam. +15, speed -0.1, SAC -5 or elemental damage heat +5... neither of those bonuses would offset balance, but they'd be an incentive to use the items...)
Advantages of this system:
- coding should be comparatively simple.
- the difference between novice weaponsmith and master weaponsmith would matter less in this system.
- novice weaponsmiths still could produce nice novice weapons
- the full variety of weapons would be available
- with tiny side-effects, those guns would really be individual
- due to weapons keeping characteristic properties (range, elemental damage) the weapons with higher ressource costs will will be desireable
- due to severe limitations of factory production with loot items, the "normal" high level guns will remain in production for high level players. (Why hand-craft 100 DLT20 rifles for lv. 54, if you can also do a factory run for adv. laser rifles? But if you have one high-quality krayt tissue at hand, the DLT20 suddenly looks very attractive if you can also get the loot-part to bring it to lv. 54.)
Disadvantages of this system:
- the whole system is based on loot. It has to be ensured that the items are not impossible to find. They should be readily available to higher level players. (There should be enough on the market to keep prices low. That way, weaponsmiths have an easy way to scale their weapons by picking up the things from the bazaar.)
- factory production of those weapons will be hard, as the loot components are limited. (Though, the same already is true for gorax shards or krayt tissues... these weapons are handcrafted and indivudually made. )
- All in all i would expect this system to have a limited effect on the current weapons market but would very much influence the selection of weapons which are built on an individual basis. (So, a DH18 pistol in the hands of a DoubleMaster would be viable, instead of the joke it is now...)
Any comments on this suggestion, do you think this is better or worse than my previous ideas? Feel free to make better suggestions of fixes for the still present flaws (of which i probably missed a few in my thoughts) of the suggestion.
Message Edited by Sylow on 05-30-2005 01:16 PM
Imaridril
Mon May 30, 2005 4:35 am
#8
If the devs every turn the Elemental Damage system, a greater variety of weapons might be useful. Technically there are ten different combinations of damage types available for weapons in the CU. (All energy, all kinetic, and combinations of either energy or kinetic and one of the four elemental damage types.) Now, I don't think there's any proffession out that that would be able to cover all of those damage types with master level weapons. Ideally the devs would be able to create a situation where it would sometimes be adventageous to use a lower level weapon in order to gain access to the specific elemental damage typethat the MOB he is fighting is weakest against.
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